Do you ignore col regs

[fireball]

Well I started off in Wales twenty odd years ago and I've got back there now, If thats what you mean. Other wise we always ended up some where else.

Yer. But you always take the boat back to her home berth. Hence going round in circles!

 

[Kawasaki]

Hence going round in circles!

Same as this Thread is

 

[DAKA]

someone must be prepared to stick ones neck out..........

I am not saying this is how I would act but a summary along these lines would be helpfull.
Based on a boat @ 25 knts cruise (being most common to this forum).

When you first spot at Tanker at X= 14 nm distance you monitor for a while and helm to Port to take your course well away from KZ (Kill zone 10 m from tanker bow)

If you dont see the Tanker at X by the time you see him at 6 nm he will have already altered course for you (if he is going to) and will not be an issue.

At 2 miles if he remains an issue then you have three options

a) turn to starboard and replot for a new destination as you are both travelling at 20 knts you could be 40 miles off course waiting for him to pass.

b) do a 180' and go back to where you came from

c) Turn to starboard and do a guru Fireball 270' passing safely behind the tanker.

d) Do an 'RYA chicken run' and stand on in the knowledge that very few MIAs actually get reported so the chances are you will be fine.


Please note this is intended as a suggested format and not presented as a final summary, so no need to argue with it just issue your own version so we can get Fireball and or Tim to approve it.

 

[PaulGooch]

someone must be prepared to stick ones neck out..........

I am not saying this is how I would act but a summary along these lines would be helpfull.
Based on a boat @ 25 knts cruise (being most common to this forum).

When you first spot at Tanker at X= 14 nm distance you monitor for a while and helm to Port to take your course well away from KZ (Kill zone 10 m from tanker bow)

If you dont see the Tanker at X by the time you see him at 6 nm he will have already altered course for you (if he is going to) and will not be an issue.

At 2 miles if he remains an issue then you have three options

a) turn to starboard and replot for a new destination as you are both travelling at 20 knts you could be 40 miles off course waiting for him to pass.

b) do a 180' and go back to where you came from

c) Turn to starboard and do a guru Fireball 270' passing safely behind the tanker.

d) Do an 'RYA chicken run' and stand on in the knowledge that very few MIAs actually get reported so the chances are you will be fine.


Please note this is intended as a suggested format and not presented as a final summary, so no need to argue with it just issue your own version so we can get Fireball and or Tim to approve it.

That's just pointless Pete.

You know full well that you prefer to pass the stern of big ships, so you wouldn't monitor the ship from 14 nm to 6 nm, you would have taken action long before the ship did, so none of the rest would occur.

If you didn't see him until 6 nm and he'd changed course, you still have the option to turn sufficiently to port so as to be obvious to the skipper what you intend. He'll resume course and you'll safely pass his stern with no infringement of Colregs.

At 2 miles you will have to abide by you responsibilities as per Colregs. If you don't like those responsibilities, pay more attention next time and change course earlier

 

[fireball]

<snip>
At 2 miles if he remains an issue then you have three options

You are wrong - you have more than 3 options - in fact, you have produced 4 of them, but there are many more.

a) turn to starboard and replot for a new destination as you are both travelling at 20 knts you could be 40 miles off course waiting for him to pass.

Well - just turning to starboard on a parallel course to the target would be a dumb thing to do then wouldn't it ...

b) do a 180' and go back to where you came from

Yes - that is a good option - you only need to go 180° to your original for a few minutes before you can do another 180° turn and resume your original course. The advantage of this is that it would be immediately obvious to the target that you are taking avoiding action and it would keep you clear of the target vessel.

c) Turn to starboard and do a guru Fireball 270' passing safely behind the tanker.

That was a slightly tongue in cheek response - as you would need to ascertain that the target vessel hadn't altered course to starboard too. An initial turn to starboard to a parallel course then held would give you time to appraise that before continuing around.

d) Do an 'RYA chicken run' and stand on in the knowledge that very few MIAs actually get reported so the chances are you will be fine.

You know that is not an option unless you are with a bunch of blokes and SWMBO has ensured your insurance is up to date.

What you have completely missed is the speed element ... you could change that ...

So - no your summary of 3 options (containing 4) is not accepted! Try again!

 

[Robin]

I thought most mobos had throttle levers which moved progressively, not just on and off switches? Slowing or stopping is a perfectly legitimate tactic if the other vessel has not taken action, so turn to starboard and drop off the plane for a few minutes whilst the ship passes. Or even stop and make a coffee, you could even drop the fishing line over for a few mackerel.

But hey that wouldn't continue the windup would it!

 

[ricky_s]

drop off the plane for a few minutes

Off the plane! Are you mad!! ;-)

 

[DAKA]

Off the plane! Are you mad!! ;-)

Time for a light hearted true story me thinks..........

On way to Amsterdam from Dover, I spotted a ship in the TSS and decided to stop to let it pass (error 1)

Once it had passed I pushed the throttles forward and Starboard engine just raced, no propulsion.
On lifting the leg one of the duo props had fallen off.

Carrying on the Blankenberg @ 8 knots, real killer took forever.

Anyway time to check situation once in blankenberg, the locking bolt had sheered off.
I managed to buy a spare prop in blankenberg but no means to hold it in place but I figured it wouldnt go far with 200 hp holding it on .
I set off for Imuiden 100nm knowing that the prop would stay on as long as I went forward and didnt slow down or use astern.

All was going well @ 24 knots until we came to Mass (massmound??) TSS where we had to get permission to proceed, after a little VHF confusion we circled @24 knots for 1/2 hour trying to keep a sensible distance from the 6-8 raggies also waiting for a Tanker to enter Mass.

On arrival at Imiuden I took the revs off the good side first and then very slowly off the poorly side, the prop stayed on

 

[Capt Cautious]

Seems there are some good conclusions being drawn in the thread - I only hope what is preached is practised ! There was a post a few back about the use of VHF - the response was spot on - and I'd advise anyone intending to burst onto the airwaves to read MGN 167 - Use of VHF in collision avidance.

I've been called up a few times by leisure craft while navigating in the traffic lanes around the Greenwich buoy / Bassurelle. While its appreciated - I'd much rather you just obeyed the colregs - its very difficult to identify individual leisure craft when there are several about.

CC

MGN 324 ( replaces 167) says exactly the same - but bigger... and with AIS

 

[Cruiser2B]

While its appreciated - I'd much rather you just obeyed the colregs - its very difficult to identify individual leisure craft when there are several about.

Mine was the post a few back about VHF - the point that you should have hoisted in, was that they weren't obeying the colregs, therefore the recommendation for the VHF call. Your MGNs do note that sometimes VHF calls are warranted, and this would be just such a case:

Although the use of VHF radio may be justified on occasion in collision avoidance, the
provisions of the Collision Regulations should remain uppermost, as misunderstandings
can arise even where the language of communication is not a problem.

If there is another mobo about, it is fairly easy to further identify yourself - "the lead vessel", "the closer vessel", "the one that's turning left now"...
If you identified yourself as "the one with the topless blonde sunning on the foredeck" you'd be guaranteed they'd be keeping their eyes on you -- although you may not get the separation you desired

 

[Capt Cautious]

Excellent justification for a close quarters situation. You win.

CC

 

[fireball]

If there is another mobo about, it is fairly easy to further identify yourself - "the lead vessel", "the closer vessel", "the one that's turning left now"...

The first two options you give may not be correct - there may be another vessel you cannot see - hence the mis-identification, the last one (turning left now - can you at least make it 'turning to port'!!) would be clearer - but still leaves room for error. I think it would be better if you could give a range and bearing from them - so - the motor vessel 2 miles 30 degrees off your starboard bow - would be acurate and most likely to get a positive identification.

If you identified yourself as "the one with the topless blonde sunning on the foredeck" you'd be guaranteed they'd be keeping their eyes on you -- although you may not get the separation you desired

Where do I get one?

 

[Cruiser2B]

can you at least make it 'turning to port'!!

Trying to keep it simple for the mobo drivers

I think it would be better if you could give a range and bearing from them - so - the motor vessel 2 miles 30 degrees off your starboard bow - would be acurate and most likely to get a positive identification.

If you are unable to see if there are any other vessels that are also 2 miles on his starboard bow, then you might have other issues to worry about. I agree that range and bearing is a good method - but given some of the contributors here confess to being unable to determine a steady bearing, I thought it best to avoid that possible source of error and keep it as simple as possible. For those that can handle bearings, and aren't confused when working out reciprocals, then by all means, use them.

 

[timbartlett]

...a summary along these lines would be helpfull

There's an excellent one here (about one third of the way through) And it's been brilliantly worked out so that it works for any vessel, at any speed!

When you first spot at Tanker at X= 14 nm distance you monitor for a while and helm to Port to take your course well away from KZ (Kill zone 10 m from tanker bow)

Please lose the "Kill zone" concept. It's not helpful, and just gives the impression that you are taking the p155.

If you dont see the Tanker at X by the time you see him at 6 nm he will have already altered course for you (if he is going to) and will not be an issue.

Definitely not. At 6M he might have altered (or be just about to)He is more likely to alter at some point less than 6M. You are obliged to stand on until it becomes apparent that he is not taking action -- which might not be until 2M for a big ship (about 300m long), or 0.5M for a smallish one (the size of a Wightlink ferry, for instance)

At 2 miles if he remains an issue then you have three options

No. You have six legitimate options:-
(i) You can continue to stand on until collision cannot be avoided by the action of the give-way vessel alone, at which point you must do anything you think will avoid the collision. In a fast and manoeuvrable boat, you have plenty of opportunity.
(ii) You can hold your course and increase speed
(iii) You can hold your course and reduce speed
(iv) You can alter course to starboard at the same speed
(v) You can alter course to starboard and increase speed
(vi) You can alter course to starboard and reduce speed

a) turn to starboard and replot for a new destination as you are both travelling at 20 knts you could be 40 miles off course waiting for him to pass.

Don't you have throttle levers on your boat? Drop to 10 knots, and your "collision" turns into a miss-by-a-mile in six minutes, and at the very worst, it adds two miles to your total distance (and probably a lot less). Slow down to five knots, and it takes four minutes to achieve a CPA of 1M, and adds less than half a mile to the passage. Unless you have calculated a course to steer allowing for tide, you're probably wandering several miles off your optimum track anyway, so what's half a mile here or there?

b) do a 180' and go back to where you came from

Well I suppose you could. But why??

c) Turn to starboard and do a guru Fireball 270' passing safely behind the tanker.

I think (and hope) that Fireball was joking. We all know that this is effectively the same as altering course 90 to port, which is verboten because it makes matters worse.

d) Do an 'RYA chicken run' and stand on in the knowledge that very few MIAs actually get reported so the chances are you will be fine.

What you call a "chicken run" has nothing to do with the RYA, and very little to do with the colregs. It is a figment of your imagination, loosely based on an inadequate precis of Rule 17.

Is there anyone one on this thread who has first-hand knowledge of what it is like to actually drive a ship who goes along with the idea that recreational skippers should be encouraged to flout the colregs?

 

[fireball]

If you are unable to see if there are any other vessels that are also 2 miles on his starboard bow, then you might have other issues to worry about. I agree that range and bearing is a good method - but given some of the contributors here confess to being unable to determine a steady bearing, I thought it best to avoid that possible source of error and keep it as simple as possible. For those that can handle bearings, and aren't confused when working out reciprocals, then by all means, use them.

I can see why you said what you did. And it may be right - especially in a a flat calm. But with waves to be taken into account it is quite easy to miss a vessel. And that's both you and the ship. Hence range and bearing are far better

 

[Capt Cautious]

Re "Is there anyone one on this thread who has first-hand knowledge of what it is like to actually drive a ship who goes along with the idea that recreational skippers should be encouraged to flout the colregs?"

Recreational boat owners perhaps should be actively encouraged to attend some sort of educational institution. It is probably asking a little much to expect them to be able to "mix it up" with those of us on the "big ships" (mine's only 200m though ) and to be aware of actions which we are likely to take and the limitations of our vessels, when they have no experience or in depth knowlege of the subject.

There is some sound advice on this thread, but it only gets to those interested enough to read it. The one who wraps himself round my bow this summer probably won't be one of them.

CC

 

[DAKA]

Please lose the "Kill zone" concept. It's not helpful, and just gives the impression that you are taking the p155.Definitely not.

I thought we had agreed to differ Tim, I have no wish to fall out over this.
We both have very similar views on this , its just our explanations which differ.

I wasnt attempting to take the p155 with 'Kill Zone' , thats just an attempt to add interest .
I was taking the p155 when I suggested I could see a ship at 14 miles well enough to ascertain a collision situation.

Now I will try to explain again our apparent differences.

Snowleopards photo

I perceive that as 1/2 nm and into immediate KZ.
I went to a lot of trouble in the last thread to calculate the actual distance and I was underestimating the distance.

I will be taking immediate evasive action.

You see it as ? 3-5 miles away ?
Now bearing in mind I will have taken evasive action well before 1/2 mile to KZ (under minute and a half away).
I will have taken evasive action at my perceived 1 nm.
seeing as you see my 1 nm as 6-10 miles there isnt a problem, we are both acting in identical ways and still have an option to turn to port to go around the ships stern.

Anyone else care to mention a gut reaction on the above photo as a port side view from the helm @25 knots.

Could be a simple matter of me under estimating distance.

The laser sailing dinghy is 200 meters away and can be ignored (thats scuttlebutts who said that, my estimate was under 200m)

 

[Capt Cautious]

The vessel is approx 2.5 miles away assuming you have a height of eye of 7 ft. He is well inside your visible horizon. From your description this appears to be an overtaking situation - and your obligations are quite clear. In this situation the large vessel may be in the grey area where he may think you are crossing, he may think you are overtaking. It rather depends on where you were 1 minute before the picture was taken.

Perhaps you should draw a little plot to make it easier to understand the situation - the aspect of the other vessel is not very clear - but we do appear to be more than 2 points abaft her beam (I can see a bit of her transom).

CC

 

[DAKA]

The vessel is approx 2.5 miles away assuming you have a height of eye of 7 ft. He is well inside your visible horizon. From your description this appears to be an overtaking situation - and your obligations are quite clear. In this situation the large vessel may be in the grey area where he may think you are crossing, he may think you are overtaking. It rather depends on where you were 1 minute before the picture was taken.

Perhaps you should draw a little plot to make it easier to understand the situation - the aspect of the other vessel is not very clear - but we do appear to be more than 2 points abaft her beam (I can see a bit of her transom).

CC

There is no need for a diagram (or time in the actual situation).
I deduce that if you were the Tanker captain you would expect me to pass astern of you if I am overtaking and if I am crossing you then you are already passed, either way you expect me to pass astern of you.

Thats exactly my choice.

Could do with confirmation from Fireball or Tim and we can conclude in perfect harmony.

This thread was lost in misconceptions of others perceptions.

 

[Capt Cautious]

The reason I'd need to know (and I am a tanker captain) where you were 1 minute before, is because I too would have to know if you were on a steady bearing. Its somewhat easier for me to judge being on a somewhat more stable platform. Without giving me that information then any subsequent decision is of course based upon scanty information - and you know what the colregs think about that.
If you are in doubt as to whether you are overtaking or crossing, then you must assume you are overtaking and act accordingly. You can go whichever way results in passing at a safe distance.

CC