Do you adjust your furling jib halyard during the season .

[Refueler]

Luff foils are very common on race boats - they permit headsail changes without being bare-headed.

on race boats with head foils.., the halyard tension might be adjusted several times in a single weather leg.

The presence or absence of a foil isn't really that important - you can still get all the benefits of adjusting halyard tension even with a foil.

the primary effect of luff tension is in draft position - increasing luff tension moves the draft forward. In the simplest case, you might add luff tension just to counteract the natural tendency for draft to to move aft as the wind increases.., to keep the maximum draft in the correct position, fore and aft.

I am well aware of draft and so on ... having raced and successfully ... but with a furling gear groove - I find it hard to imagine I can get same amount of effect as with a hanked on sail.

Anyway - the OP IMHO was not asking in relation to draft / racing or similar ... I get impression he was asking in regard to CHECKING and re-tensioning if halyard etc. stretches.

 

[SaltyC]

This-----and I also remove the sail if Im away from the boat for longer than a week.

So, I am not the only one to remove when leaving!!! I get many comments of 'it's not worth the effort' as I spend 15 mins removing and bagging, yet no worries of it unfurling in strong winds and UV strip lasts for ever.........

 

[Refueler]

So, I am not the only one to remove when leaving!!! I get many comments of 'it's not worth the effort' as I spend 15 mins removing and bagging, yet no worries of it unfurling in strong winds and UV strip lasts for ever.........

Unfurling in strong winds ......

That's the possible result of not furling an extra 2 turns to have sheets actually wrapped round. Too many boats I see the clew still free and able to flap around in the wind ... the simple act of two more turns and that's cured.

 

[RJJ]

Depends whether halyard tension is much less than forestay tension or not.
If you dump the backstay and apply a lot of halyard tension, all the load is on the jib luff and not on the wire. But generally the forestay takes the main tension, not the jib luff, so cranking on the backstay puts little extra onto the luff rope of the jib. It does however straighten the luff so has a flattening effect in the jib.

If you are tightening the backstay from a position where it's loose (and particularly on a fractional or a 19/20 rig it's quite normal for it to be hand-tight when relaxed) then you are increasing the length covered by the jib halyard. If the jib halyard is already tight, you are making it tighter.

Assuming that the sail is not furled then the halyard tension will affect the sail shape is exactly the same as a hanked on one.

As an aside many racing boats have a 'tuff luff' foil rather than using hanks on a bare forestay

If you tighten the halyard you pull the draft forward. This gives you a more aerofoil (as opposed to round) shape, viewed from top down. That in turn gives you a broader "groove" to steer around wind and waves, the tradeoff being a little bit of pointing.

Pulling draft forward also (like pulling the Cunningham) also increases twist which lowers the centre of effort and reduces heeling.

Unfurling in strong winds ......

That's the possible result of not furling an extra 2 turns to have sheets actually wrapped round. Too many boats I see the clew still free and able to flap around in the wind ... the simple act of two more turns and that's cured.

If I leave the boat more than a week, or if strong winds are expected, I put a sail tie around the clew (if I can reach it) or around the foot securing it to a mooring cleat.

 

[flaming]

If you are tightening the backstay from a position where it's loose (and particularly on a fractional or a 19/20 rig it's quite normal for it to be hand-tight when relaxed) then you are increasing the length covered by the jib halyard. If the jib halyard is already tight, you are making it tighter.

Not really... What you're really doing by tightening the backstay on a fractional rig is to bend the mast and open the leach of the main. The effect on the forestay is not major, and on the jib halyard tension is ignored. I've certainly never heard the advice to set backstay before jib halyard before, and this in any case would not work as the backstay is your primary depowering tool and if racing is played constantly in gusty conditions.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Old Harry]

Luff foils are very common on race boats - they permit headsail changes without being bare-headed.

on race boats with head foils.., the halyard tension might be adjusted several times in a single weather leg.

The presence or absence of a foil isn't really that important - you can still get all the benefits of adjusting halyard tension even with a foil.

the primary effect of luff tension is in draft position - increasing luff tension moves the draft forward. In the simplest case, you might add luff tension just to counteract the natural tendency for draft to to move aft as the wind increases.., to keep the maximum draft in the correct position, fore and aft.

OMG a real sailor

 

[Deleted member 36384]

I am well aware of draft and so on ... having raced and successfully ... but with a furling gear groove - I find it hard to imagine I can get same amount of effect as with a hanked on sail.

Anyway - the OP IMHO was not asking in relation to draft / racing or similar ... I get impression he was asking in regard to CHECKING and re-tensioning if halyard etc. stretches.

What is the difference between a 'furling gear groove' and a foil with no furling system, nothing. When the sail is fully unfurled or a non furling sail on a foil, both sale shapes change based on halyard tension. Hanked on sails are an inefficient form of foil and offer no advantages to sale shape control over a foil. I bought a new Vecran roller reefing head sail a couple of years ago. Between light airs and at point of first reef in the headsail, tensioning the halyard to change sail shape works to increase speed and reduce heal. On the same boat, I have sailed with a full suit of hanked on 'white' sails and they all were adjusted the same, with the same effect. I am genuinely curious, unless of course you mean when the sail is reefed, then I would agree, tension on the halyard from that point on would not help change sail shape.

As far as the OPs points are concerned, the thread as drifted, it is what happens in the majority of threads, discussion develops.

 

[johnalison]

Not really... What you're really doing by tightening the backstay on a fractional rig is to bend the mast and open the leach of the main. The effect on the forestay is not major, and on the jib halyard tension is ignored. I've certainly never heard the advice to set backstay before jib halyard before, and this in any case would not work as the backstay is your primary depowering tool and if racing is played constantly in gusty conditions.

[/QUOTE]
It's not something I had ever thought about but I don't see that tightening the backstay would also tighten the jib halyard. Bending the mast would increase the distance from tack to head, but if the jib is following the curve of the foil, its length would remain the same. The distance from the top of the mast to base would actually be shortened, and in some installations it looks to me as if the jib halyard would actually slacken, unless its length were maintained by following a channel within the mast.

 

[RJJ]

It's not something I had ever thought about but I don't see that tightening the backstay would also tighten the jib halyard. Bending the mast would increase the distance from tack to head, but if the jib is following the curve of the foil, its length would remain the same. The distance from the top of the mast to base would actually be shortened, and in some installations it looks to me as if the jib halyard would actually slacken, unless its length were maintained by following a channel within the mast.
[/QUOTE]

Not really... What you're really doing by tightening the backstay on a fractional rig is to bend the mast and open the leach of the main. The effect on the forestay is not major, and on the jib halyard tension is ignored. I've certainly never heard the advice to set backstay before jib halyard before, and this in any case would not work as the backstay is your primary depowering tool and if racing is played constantly in gusty conditions.

[/QUOTE]
You guys better tell Norths their "how to tune a rig" guide is wrong; also www.riggingdoctor.com; also an article in Sailing world called "getting the most from your backstay". All wrong? I got all this from a book I used to like, Sailpower by some guy called Lawrie Smith, was he wrong too?

I tried really hard to find anyone saying what you said, but I couldn't. Perhaps you can help out?

Meanwhile I'm going to keep on agreeing with North, Rigging doctor and Sailing World and figure my backstay affects both mast bend and forestay sag. On a 1980s fractional, much more the former, hence you might use runners for the forestay and their relationship with the jib halyard is the same. On a 19/20 rig, both about evenly - that's the whole point of such a rig.

I'm also going to stick with the logic that a rigger told me that the backstay can only tension the forestay by lengthening it (or, more accurately, lengthening its span) by a few mm. If you halyard is already at max tension then you apply extra backstay, you get max tension plus a few mm. Your call.

 

[Refueler]

Seems some people are mixing up Forestay with Halyard ............

Of course tensioning backstays will exert more tension on forestay but given that rope will give more than stainless wire ... the Halyard will hardly change IMHO.

 

[flaming]

It's not something I had ever thought about but I don't see that tightening the backstay would also tighten the jib halyard. Bending the mast would increase the distance from tack to head, but if the jib is following the curve of the foil, its length would remain the same. The distance from the top of the mast to base would actually be shortened, and in some installations it looks to me as if the jib halyard would actually slacken, unless its length were maintained by following a channel within the mast.

You guys better tell Norths their "how to tune a rig" guide is wrong; also www.riggingdoctor.com; also an article in Sailing world called "getting the most from your backstay". All wrong? I got all this from a book I used to like, Sailpower by some guy called Lawrie Smith, was he wrong too?

I tried really hard to find anyone saying what you said, but I couldn't. Perhaps you can help out?

Meanwhile I'm going to keep on agreeing with North, Rigging doctor and Sailing World and figure my backstay affects both mast bend and forestay sag. On a 1980s fractional, much more the former, hence you might use runners for the forestay and their relationship with the jib halyard is the same. On a 19/20 rig, both about evenly - that's the whole point of such a rig.

I'm also going to stick with the logic that a rigger told me that the backstay can only tension the forestay by lengthening it (or, more accurately, lengthening its span) by a few mm. If you halyard is already at max tension then you apply extra backstay, you get max tension plus a few mm. Your call.
[/QUOTE]

Nothing in the sailworld article disagrees with what I wrote.
Getting the Most From Your Backstay

Nor does the North article.
How to Tune Your Rig | North Sails

The point is that the major effect of the backstay on a fractional rig is to bend the mast, flatten the main and open the leach of the main. There is an effect on the forestay, as I said, but it is not major in comparison with both the effect on the main, and the effect that the backstay has on the forestay on a masthead rig.
And the effect on the halyard tension is basically zero.

 

[Laser310]

I am well aware of draft and so on ... having raced and successfully ... but with a furling gear groove - I find it hard to imagine I can get same amount of effect as with a hanked on sail.

Anyway - the OP IMHO was not asking in relation to draft / racing or similar ... I get impression he was asking in regard to CHECKING and re-tensioning if halyard etc. stretches.

There is no real difference..., the response with respect to draft position is pretty much the same

I suppose that if the foil had quite a lot of friction on the luff tape - say because of corrosion, it might inhibit the response. carbon foils won't corrode, and if friction is an issue try McLube or something.

mostly, i sail on boats where the headsail is not left in the foil when the day is over, so I know for a fact that the sail slides easily in the foil.

clearly, when the luff tension of a hanked on sail is eased to the reasonable lower limit.., the scallops will be more open (for lack of a better word) at the stay than those on a foil, because of the way the foil constrains the luff. but this difference is only right at the luff - the scallops will develop normally right behind the foil. Iam not aware that anyone thinks this difference is important. it doesn't affect the ability of the halyard tension to control the draft position. In any case. most cruising sailors don't (purposely) ease the halyard to the point there are scallops.

I recently sold a boat with a hanked on jib. I now have a boat with a furling jib - i adjust jib halyard tension exactly the same way as i did with the old boat.

 

[RJJ]

You guys better tell Norths their "how to tune a rig" guide is wrong; also www.riggingdoctor.com; also an article in Sailing world called "getting the most from your backstay". All wrong? I got all this from a book I used to like, Sailpower by some guy called Lawrie Smith, was he wrong too?

I tried really hard to find anyone saying what you said, but I couldn't. Perhaps you can help out?

Meanwhile I'm going to keep on agreeing with North, Rigging doctor and Sailing World and figure my backstay affects both mast bend and forestay sag. On a 1980s fractional, much more the former, hence you might use runners for the forestay and their relationship with the jib halyard is the same. On a 19/20 rig, both about evenly - that's the whole point of such a rig.

I'm also going to stick with the logic that a rigger told me that the backstay can only tension the forestay by lengthening it (or, more accurately, lengthening its span) by a few mm. If you halyard is already at max tension then you apply extra backstay, you get max tension plus a few mm. Your call.

Nothing in the sailworld article disagrees with what I wrote.
Getting the Most From Your Backstay

Nor does the North article.
How to Tune Your Rig | North Sails

The point is that the major effect of the backstay on a fractional rig is to bend the mast, flatten the main and open the leach of the main. There is an effect on the forestay, as I said, but it is not major in comparison with both the effect on the main, and the effect that the backstay has on the forestay on a masthead rig.
And the effect on the halyard tension is basically zero.
[/QUOTE]

The effect on the forestay is not major, and on the jib halyard tension is ignored.

You wrote: ".The effect on the forestay is not major"

The article says:
"As the backstay is tensioned, the mast bends and the forestay tightens,"

Which is not the same thing, and which is what I said, and Lawrie Smith said. It's what the rigger said who helped me set up my boat with 19/20 rig, just before he told me not to wind on max halyard with the backstay off, and which folks here disagreed with. I'm sticking with the advice I paid for, the logic is sound, but you guys do what you want. I've been sailing for 35 years, I'd never heard this particular advice before either, but it makes sense to me so I adopted it. I don't need to have an argument before viewing things afresh.

At best it helps my sail last a bit longer. At worst it costs me... absolutely nothing, I just wind on the backstay before instead of after the halyard. But do what you've always done if you want, it must have been right because you've always done it.

If the backstay doesn't do much to the forestay then why, on a 3/4 rig like on 1980s IOR boats, were the running backstays such a big deal upwind? Please don't tell me they were to bend the mast.

Regarding rope...yes, possibly true if you have polyester halyards or whatever. If you have Dyneema (or wire) then we are back to a few mm of elongation adding significant tension to an already tight maxed-out halyard and and sail.

I'm done here; it's down to you guys to explain why a sail at max tension can tolerate those extra mm inflicted by the backstay. You can choose not to care about those extra mm, or go and ask an expert, or decide you have enough stretch in your halyard and sail not to care (then by definition you weren't at max halyard to begin with). But if you want to keep arguing with me, and the professional rigger, you'll have to do a bit better than just telling me I'm wrong, stating things that ain't so, and misquoting yourselves.

 

[flaming]

Nothing in the sailworld article disagrees with what I wrote.
Getting the Most From Your Backstay

Nor does the North article.
How to Tune Your Rig | North Sails

The point is that the major effect of the backstay on a fractional rig is to bend the mast, flatten the main and open the leach of the main. There is an effect on the forestay, as I said, but it is not major in comparison with both the effect on the main, and the effect that the backstay has on the forestay on a masthead rig.
And the effect on the halyard tension is basically zero.

If the backstay doesn't do much to the forestay then why, on a 3/4 rig like on 1980s IOR boats, were the running backstays such a big deal upwind? Please don't tell me they were to bend the mast.

[/QUOTE]

Errrr... The running backstays were there to tension the forestay upwind precisely because the backstay didn't do much! That's kinda the point... As the forestay gets closer to the top of the mast the effect gets larger, up until a masthead rig where the backstay is the primary tool of forestay tension, but doesn't do much for mast bend and mainsail flattening. Ask yourself what is different about modern fractional rigs that they do not need the running backstay? Answer is the prebend in the mast and the swept back spreaders taking most of the forestay load.

Necessarily as one effect increases, you are going to lose the other.
Which is what I said, there is an effect, but it is not major as it would be in a masthead rig. Please do read what I actually write, not invent things that you think I've said.

If you race a modern fractional rig, the most powerful tuning input is forestay tension, and every boat I have raced in the last 10 years or so has had an adjustable, claibrated, forestay. This is set, with the sails down, against the swept back spreaders with the backstay slack. In essence you use this to set your forestay sag for the conditions that you are sailing in. You are not setting forestay sag with the backstay in the way that you would with a masthead rig.
Which was the point I was making. Not that backstay has no effect, but that because the major effect of backstay on a fractional rig is to bend the mast, the effect on forestay tension is nothing like as pronounced.

As to the effect on halyard tension, put it this way... Going downwind with the kite up the backstay is eased. Before we get to the leeward mark we hoist the jib. Depending on which gybe we're coming in on, and how busy things are, the jib might get its halyard tension well in advance of the rounding, or just in time. So sometimes before and sometimes after the main trimmer puts the backstay tension back on for the upwind leg. I have never noticed the slightest difference to the draft of the jib depending on whether the halyard was cranked to its mark before the backstay was put back on for the upwind leg or after. Any effect here is completely minor. What your rigger said sounds like good advice in the "might as well" category, but the actual effect will be small.

And there is of course a difference between deck stepped fractional rigs, and keel stepped rigs. With a deck stepped rig with significant pre-bend, such as the boat I'm now sailing, when you wind on the backstay what you are mostly doing is reducing the distance between the top and the foot. If you take a straw or similar, bend it a little, then hold one end and compress the other down towards the end you're holding, look at what happens to the bend, it actually goes forward of the direct plane between the 2 ends.
Obviously it's not that simple on a boat, as the force is not only compressive but does have an aft component, but you can see that there is not likely to be a large force pulling back on the forestay due to the increased backstay tension.
Keel stepped is more complicated, as you are effectively bending a longer beam with additional fixed points, so there will be more tendency to rake the mast than with a deck stepped mast.

 

[dunedin]

RJJ - I suspect you are mixing up
(A) Forestay sag - which is reduced by tensioning the backstay.
(B) Sail luff tension - which is not materially impacted by the backstay tension, unless the forestay was already extremely slack when the halyard was tensioned (which would be bad practice).

Both can impact sail shape, but in slightly different ways. If related to a mainsail equivalent, Forestay sag would be like a rear bend in the mast, shortening the effective chord in the middle and leading to a sag. Sail luff tension is more like pulling on a Cunningham control.

 

[Fantasie 19]

I recently sold a boat with a hanked on jib. I now have a boat with a furling jib - i adjust jib halyard tension exactly the same way as i did with the old boat.

Kind of interested - does the adjusting have the same degree of effect with furler as non-furler??? I've always had furlers so never done the adjustment of the halyard.. I whack it up in the spring, tension it, and it stays that way until the autumn..

 

[RJJ]

RJJ - I suspect you are mixing up
(A) Forestay sag - which is reduced by tensioning the backstay.
(B) Sail luff tension - which is not materially impacted by the backstay tension, unless the forestay was already extremely slack when the halyard was tensioned (which would be bad practice).

Both can impact sail shape, but in slightly different ways. If related to a mainsail equivalent, Forestay sag would be like a rear bend in the mast, sghortening the effective chord in the middle and leading to a sag. Sail luff tension is more like pulling on a Cunningham control.

I'm really not. Someone above said (A) isn't a thing. And you and I agree it is.

(B) is precisely the point I am making; there is a link between halyard tension and backstay tension, if there wasn't then (A) isn't possible. When you say "there isn't any link, unless the forestay is slack" you are confirming there's a link. Then, whether it matters materially is the discussion. I take the rigger's advice.

Being a curious type I consulted some pro crew chums. One said he'd never thought of it and sounded silly. One has never thought of it but it made sense. The other said (addressing Flaming's observation above) that yes, in his experience when they wind on the jib halyard before going upwind, if the backstay is off then they consciously leave a few mm short of max halyard.

Some people do, some people don't. Some people learn, some people get all arsy when you suggest a different way to do things, "I'm wrong, you're right". If I'm wrong, I pull my strings in a different order. If you guys are wrong, you are causing unnecessary wear on your sails. I can live with being wrong thanks.

A more interesting discussion would be to measure it. All we'd need to do is remove the furling gear and reset the forestay and rig tension, then do a folding-rule check on the forestay with backstay on/off. That'll tell you the extension on the forestay, then you decide if you are comfy with those extra mm being shared between your sail and halyard. Anyone going to do that for us?

Like I said, I'm right on the logic; we can all decide if it's material.

 

[flaming]

I'm really not. Someone above said (A) isn't a thing. And you and I agree it is.

Again, nobody is saying it isn't a thing, but that this is significantly reduced in a fractional rig compared to a masthead rig. That's all....

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

I'm really not. Someone above said (A) isn't a thing. And you and I agree it is.

(B) is precisely the point I am making; there is a link between halyard tension and backstay tension, if there wasn't then (A) isn't possible. When you say "there isn't any link, unless the forestay is slack" you are confirming there's a link. Then, whether it matters materially is the discussion. I take the rigger's advice.

Being a curious type I consulted some pro crew chums. One said he'd never thought of it and sounded silly. One has never thought of it but it made sense. The other said (addressing Flaming's observation above) that yes, in his experience when they wind on the jib halyard before going upwind, if the backstay is off then they consciously leave a few mm short of max halyard.

Some people do, some people don't. Some people learn, some people get all arsy when you suggest a different way to do things, "I'm wrong, you're right". If I'm wrong, I pull my strings in a different order. If you guys are wrong, you are causing unnecessary wear on your sails. I can live with being wrong thanks.

A more interesting discussion would be to measure it. All we'd need to do is remove the furling gear and reset the forestay and rig tension, then do a folding-rule check on the forestay with backstay on/off. That'll tell you the extension on the forestay, then you decide if you are comfy with those extra mm being shared between your sail and halyard. Anyone going to do that for us?

Like I said, I'm right on the logic; we can all decide if it's material.

I don't think you're paying enough credit to the different degrees of 'fractiousness' and other factors (swept back spreaders etc.). The boat I race most is a real 3/4 rig with inline spreaders and no runners. On a short run the masthead goes forward several feet and the forestay and jib luff flops from side to side. (On longer ones we use the halyard to haul the whole rig forwards). At the leeward mark tightening the jib halyard before pulling the mast back with the backstay would be a huge mistake. Upwind the backstay's primary is on effect on bending the very flexible mast (and so main leech), and has a reduced effect on the forestay sag. Most forestay tension actually comes from the sheeted mainsail. On reaches it all gets a bit squirrely. So that agrees with you in spades.

It's a completely different story with the long swept back spreaders on the boat that @flaming sails.

 

[RJJ]

Again, nobody is saying it isn't a thing, but that this is significantly reduced in a fractional rig compared to a masthead rig. That's all....

I don't think that's strictly correct either. Sorry to be anal but the question is not fractional Vs masthead, it's "where does the forestay tension come from; how much is it adjusted while sailing and is that before/ after the halyard is set".

If you start with swept-back spreaders and a pre-bent mast, correctly set, your initial forestay tension comes (we agree) from the shrouds; the backstay then adds more. If instead you have inline spreaders then it comes from the runners, and my concern about halyard tension would then apply to your runner settings: apply max halyard with runners on, not off. On this type of rig it's not that the runners have a different effect, it's that when you let them off downwind the forestay might be flapping around; the range of travel is greater.

With masthead rig and in-line spreaders, all the forestay directly comes from the backstay. And then you can tighten it a bit more. On some cruising boats the mast is damn stiff and the backstay is just wound on and left; it's certainly never as loose as you might leave it on a 19/20 rig or the mast would be wobbling around.

So in all cases, if you're going to adjust the forestay tension under way, it will come from somewhere. If you do it with the jib up, it will affect the jib luff and halyard. A bit, depending on (1) how much you move the mast and (2) how much you've grown the span of the forestay in tensioning it; depending also (3) on the stretch of the forestay relative to the sail and halyard. Whether that bit is meaningful is a matter of degree; if I have set max halyard, I personally am very intolerant of another 5-10mm of stretch.