Do PLBs ...save lives....regularly...? Or...?

[SteveAus]

Do you mean because of the distance offshore? Or do AUS and NZ not have libeboat orgs?

There is no equivalent to the RNLI in Australia. There are independently run rescue boats manned by volunteers, often purchased with government money, but they are usually not self-righting and are more suitable for inshore use rather than ocean use. The situation varies from state to state. In Victoria the police are responsible for rescue using helicopters and boats, and fixed wing aircraft are used for locating boats. Each state has at least one police boat which looks large enough to be ocean going, but they are stationed hundreds of miles apart even in the SE of the country which is the most populated area.

About ten years ago a yacht sank off the Victorian coast in rough weather, leaving six crew in the water. It emerged that the local rescue boat could not leave port as the weather was too wild, and the police helicopter could not be used as it was not equipped for hovering at night. Fortunately another yacht picked up all six crew from the water. I understand that the local rescue boat has now been replaced by a larger one (although to my eye it does not look self-righting) and the police helicopter can now hover at night.

 

[Roberto]

There is no equivalent to the RNLI in Australia. There are independently run rescue boats manned by volunteers, often purchased with government money, but they are usually not self-righting and are more suitable for inshore use rather than ocean use. The situation varies from state to state. In Victoria the police are responsible for rescue using helicopters and boats, and fixed wing aircraft are used for locating boats. Each state has at least one police boat which looks large enough to be ocean going, but they are stationed hundreds of miles apart even in the SE of the country which is the most populated area.

About ten years ago a yacht sank off the Victorian coast in rough weather, leaving six crew in the water. It emerged that the local rescue boat could not leave port as the weather was too wild, and the police helicopter could not be used as it was not equipped for hovering at night. Fortunately another yacht picked up all six crew from the water. I understand that the local rescue boat has now been replaced by a larger one (although to my eye it does not look self-righting) and the police helicopter can now hover at night.

That's interesting, despite GMDSS being ''Global'', apart from the open ocean there are many coastal places where safety must be approached in a different way with regards to say Europe, etc. Countries with coastlines thousands of miles long with very sparse ports/infrastructures say every few hundred miles, basically no rescue means (thinking possibly 90% of South America, Western Africa, etc), a distress might be dealt with better if on the open ocean near a shipping lane than near a coast with the nearest tiny fishing port 300 miles away.

 

[ylop]

There is no equivalent to the RNLI in Australia. There are independently run rescue boats manned by volunteers, often purchased with government money, but they are usually not self-righting and are more suitable for inshore use rather than ocean use.

Interesting. Of course the RNLI are not the exclusive providers of rescue services in the UK either (although you'd be forgiven for thinking it from some of the marketing!) and are independent of government and almost exclusively manned by volunteers too. They do have more emphasis on self righting, but the nature of their calls means they seem to be increasingly "inshore" in terms of demand. Event the all weather boats "only" have an endurance of about 250 miles - which means if there's any searching to do etc - you are probably not getting a lifeboat more than 100 miles from base.

About ten years ago a yacht sank off the Victorian coast in rough weather, leaving six crew in the water. It emerged that the local rescue boat could not leave port as the weather was too wild, and the police helicopter could not be used as it was not equipped for hovering at night.

there's an assumption by many that RNLI boats can and will launch in any conditions, but they too have limitations which depend on the boat and local geography. CG helo's will fly terrible conditions but even they have limits both for "on scene" conditions and the conditions at base. Clearly the geography of Australia is such that there open sea in virtually every direction so designing a fleet that would be capable of anything that might be encountered could be really tricky. The UK has an "advantage" there that a lot of the places, particularly the most densely populated places don't have that far till you reach land / someone else's operating patch.

 

[Sandy]

Coming from a dinghy heritage PLBs are rarely seen, and ...often scorned. It's as if, if you go overboard off your dinghy you deserve to drown. You shouldnt even wave your arms..
...

At least if you go down while dinghy sailing you have saved £700, and can be buried with your dinghy.

A interesting concept!

It might be worth looking at the data collected. I don't recall that the published figures include the 'origin of the initial call', but that might be buried in the depth of the data. Last time I looked at the data 'death by sailing' was a tiny number, in fact you were more likely to be killed trying to rescue your dog in the water. Ironically, the dog usually survives.

We all take decisions about what safety kit we carry. A sail round the bay with 100 boats within a radius of 5 NM is very different to a single handed trip from say Stromness to Portree.

Personally, I like to give me the best opportunity of being rescued or at least my body being recovered from the oggin.

 

[Tranona]

It might be worth looking at the data collected. I don't recall that the published figures include the 'origin of the initial call', but that might be buried in the depth of the data. Last time I looked at the data 'death by sailing' was a tiny number, in fact you were more likely to be killed trying to rescue your dog in the water. Ironically, the dog usually survives.

RNLI/Coastguard do publish the data and I don't recall PLB or EPIRB even featuring. The overwhelming majority of initial calls are by phone, partly because most incidents are either land based or inshore rather than at sea. Phone and VHF are the most common at sea for obvious reasons. I have not found any recent data on EPIRBs as I don't think it is published, but I recall finding it 10 years or so ago and the number of triggers around N Europe was very small, and of those from leisure boats tiny - the majority were aircraft or fishing vessels. Logical really because the number of leisure craft that get into difficulties where other means such as VHF are not available is tiny.

 

[dunedin]

RNLI/Coastguard do publish the data and I don't recall PLB or EPIRB even featuring. The overwhelming majority of initial calls are by phone, partly because most incidents are either land based or inshore rather than at sea. Phone and VHF are the most common at sea for obvious reasons. I have not found any recent data on EPIRBs as I don't think it is published, but I recall finding it 10 years or so ago and the number of triggers around N Europe was very small, and of those from leisure boats tiny - the majority were aircraft or fishing vessels. Logical really because the number of leisure craft that get into difficulties where other means such as VHF are not available is tiny.

EPIRB rather than PLB, but these 8 fishermen will be very glad their EPIRB worked (as the skipper’s VHF failed). Report today Crew 'not wearing life jackets' in capsizing that killed Peterhead man

And of course the 21 crew of Rambler 100 are alive today because of PLBs, when their keel fell off near the Fastnet Rock, with no time to set off a VHF Distress. The EPIRB apparently failed. I believe that search was only initiated and the crew saved due to a couple of the crew carrying PLBs in their pockets.

 

[lustyd]

When I registered my PLB with Falmouth it took them six months to reply. If I activate it I'm worried they'll work on the same timescale.

MRCC Falmouth have publicly stated this is not an issue and will not affect response. Rescue is not reliant upon the database, that’s just where they find contact info and vessel details.

The system is now electronic anyway so the delays are no longer an issue. It does take time for your stickers, but that’s only an issue for commercial users and again doesn’t affect rescue.

 

[Juan Twothree]

Mine is more of a smaller and cheaper substitute for a full-on EPIRB on the boat, than a body-worn thing. Seemed a good compromise for coastal pottering.

Picture it being used in similar circumstances to this Lyme Bay rescue.

Wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't many more false alarms than true ones though.

Be good to get some horses mouth information - you'd think someone from the RNLI would be across these forums.

I'm RNLI crew, although I obviously don't speak in any official capacity.

We have PLBs on our lifejackets. I don't know if all PLBs work the same way, but as well as sending a GPS location, ours also transmit a homing signal on 121.5. This can be homed in on by all classes of lifeboat (apart from the D class), and SAR aircraft.

We get far fewer false alarms to PLBs/EPIRBS than we used to, maybe because they're more accurate, and it's easier to tell if they've been activated ashore. I don't know exactly why, but I'm not complaining.

I've been to a few incidents where PLBs were activated, and even if they weren't the primary means of alerting, they provided a very useful position fix.

I can also think of several fatalities I've had to deal with where a PLB might have resulted in a different outcome. In at least 6 cases, the casualty had been dead for some hours before the alarm was even raised.

 

[Supertramp]

So would I be better carrying my portable VHF strapped to my lifejacket rather than, or as well as, my PLB?

 

[lustyd]

So would I be better carrying my portable VHF strapped to my lifejacket rather than, or as well as, my PLB?

If you’re sailing where others are in VHF range (from water level, it’s not far!) then VHF. Either way, don’t make the mistake of making the LJ so bulky you stop wearing it!

 

[Mark-1]

If you’re sailing where others are in VHF range (from water level, it’s not far!) then VHF. Either way, don’t make the mistake of making the LJ so bulky you stop wearing it!

FWIW, currently, when singlehanded in situations I consider appropriate I carry a WP HH VHF and an old fashioned "button" mobile phone in an aqua pack on lanyards around my neck. They're bulky and inconvenient and it's a pain and I really want to swap them for a single PLB discreetly tucked into my LJ. However I just can't find out what the real world guaranteed response times of PLBs are. Obvs there's a combined AIS PLB but I'm also not convinced the symbol from an AIS PLB will be understood and acted upon by random boaters.

It's a shame. When these things came out they seemed to be the panacea for emergency comms, then unintended consequences bit.

Obvs in a remote area or in a LR or with crew then everything changes, but that's not the use case that worries me. If I'm single handed I'll be somewhere in the Solent area most likely with mobile signal and within VHF range of at least one or more vessel and likely Solent CG's mast. I just need a prompt rescue before the cold gets me. If I'm not physically in the water I'm not going to die anyway, there will be plenty of options.

I also can't help but think if I want to live longer I'd be better off eating better or doing advanced driver training rather than making sailing safer when it's already about the safest thing I do.

 

[lustyd]

However I just can't find out what the real world guaranteed response times of PLBs are.

There is no guarantee, way too many variables such as how far you are from a lifeboat station or even if you’re within range of one.

Obvs theres a combined AIS PLB

Which seem to all be a bit too large to sensibly carry all of the time. Same reason I don’t carry my DSC VHF.

 

[dunedin]

So would I be better carrying my portable VHF strapped to my lifejacket rather than, or as well as, my PLB?

I carry both, but it depends on location. If plenty of other boats around the VHF is best, as somebody else may hear and come to your aid - or do a MayDay relay (as I did for a kayak who could not be heard by the Coastguard).
In remote spots a PLB will raise alarm by satellite, and not reliant on VHF.

Incidentally, with mobile phone signals improving, trying your mobile phone first may be a good plan. Contrary to what some think, there is often phone signal where there is no VHF. With the kayak MayDay the Coastguard couldn’t hear him on VHF - but I was on the phone to them as perfect phone signal. And I picked up weather forecasts at St Kilda by phone, that I couldn’t get by VHF.

 

[Mark-1]

There is no guarantee, way too many variables such as how far you are from a lifeboat station or even if you’re within range of one.

Poor choice of word, but you know what I mean.

 

[Mark-1]

Incidentally, with mobile phone signals improving, trying your mobile phone first may be a good plan. Contrary to what some think, there is often phone signal where there is no VHF.

Definitely true. It's not 1999. The masts are high and plentiful. I can only think of one place in the Solent where I don't get signal,and I recall on the West Coast of Scotland back in the day I could use WAP for weather and I don't think I heard a peep on the VHF all week apart from fishermen.

In a real mayday I was involved in (around 2004?) there was carrier on 16 but the mobile worked fine. We then got chastised by the CG for using the mobile for a mayday.

I reckon I'd use both. Alert nearby vessels if any looked likely and then 999. It's not like I'd have anything better to do.

 

[Tranona]

EPIRB rather than PLB, but these 8 fishermen will be very glad their EPIRB worked (as the skipper’s VHF failed). Report today Crew 'not wearing life jackets' in capsizing that killed Peterhead man

And of course the 21 crew of Rambler 100 are alive today because of PLBs, when their keel fell off near the Fastnet Rock, with no time to set off a VHF Distress. The EPIRB apparently failed. I believe that search was only initiated and the crew saved due to a couple of the crew carrying PLBs in their pockets.

Those are good examples of the point I was making - neither were "leisure" boats. One needs to keep a sense of proportion, and assess the probability of falling in the water from the type of boat you are in and where you are likely to be sailing. The reality is that MOBs from cruising boats are rare and the risk rises the more extreme your sailing pattern (racing is an obvious higher risk activity) and the further you go from the infrastructure that underpins our coastal based emergency services.

Commercial and particularly fishing boats are very different. Not only are the boats inherently unstable compared with yachts, but they operate far longer hours in more extreme weather often in areas with poorer communications coverage.

 

[Juan Twothree]

Have you been reading the report on the Ouzo disaster? When they examined the bodies of the crew, they suggested that those with lifejackets had survived for 24 hours before drowning and those without had only survived for an hour or so.

I know which one I prefer

The Ouzo is an interesting case to consider in this discussion.


https://assets.digital.cabinet-office.gov.uk/media/547c7053ed915d4c10000083/OuzoReport.pdf


The first indication that anything untoward had happened to the yacht was when a body was found floating in the sea around midday on 22 August. The accident investigation concluded that the collision/swamping had occurred around 0100 on the 21st.

There was no distress signal received from the yacht, but might PLBs have made a difference to the crews' survival?

 

[Juan Twothree]

As discussed a lot on this site in the scenario you describe (which also concerns me) the big drawback of the PLB is the time it takes to check it's not a false alarm. There have been three conflicting versions of what happens when they pick up the alarm. 1) They do a phone round of contacts and when they are happy it's a real MOB they launch. 2) They do a five minute phone around then launch. 3) They launch then do a phone around to see if it's a false alarm.
A definitive answer to which would help a lot. (MAIB reports suggest 1, but by definition they're the ones where someone died so perhaps not typical.)

This is the reply I posted to a question on this subject last year (I had checked with an MRCC to make sure my information was correct).

The RCC at Fareham receives the alert and makes very rapid enquiries. They then assign it to a CG ops room, which, as it is distress, have to start acting on it and pressing buttons immediately.

So the protocol is that assets are tasked within 5 minutes of the alert initially being received, and their incident management software monitors their responses and actions.

Any further investigations, phone/VHF calls etc happen after that.

I seem to recall one or two MAIB reports (which I can't find at the moment) concerning situations where this didn't happen, but that's probably why they were subject to an investigation.

 

[Mark-1]

.

 

[ylop]

However I just can't find out what the real world guaranteed response times of PLBs are.

What do you define as guaranteed response time? Time from you activating the device to lifeboat crew paged?

If I'm single handed I'll be somewhere in the Solent area most likely with mobile signal and within VHF range of at least one or more vessel and likely Solent CG's mast.

Well if your question is will you get a response quicker from a PLB than VHF or 999. No. But if your VHF is not DSC you MIGHT get rescued quicker as the precise location will help a targeted response. It’s also possible that one of your means of calling for help is damaged in the process of you needing help like this guy:
Round ireland 2013 - Page 18 - RIBnet Forums

So the protocol is that assets are tasked within 5 minutes of the alert initially being received, and their incident management software monitors their responses and actions.

I’d question what “initially received” means. There’s enough examples in MAIB reports to suggest that it’s probably atleast 5 minutes from UKMCC first getting details from the satellites to the local MRCC having been alerted and passed all the details. I think for a classic mayday vhf call it’s often about 5 mins from first receipt of a call to the DLA asking to page the crew.

I seem to recall one or two MAIB reports (which I can't find at the moment) concerning situations where this didn't happen, but that's probably why they were subject to an investigation.

The most spectacular delay was the Louisa in Mingulay bay but it was old tech Epirb and modern PLB manufacturers claim to get a resolved position transmitted much quicker.

Anyone who’s used a gps for the first time knows that a cold start takes some time, you need to keep the signal unobstructed and the satellites are not geostationary so may not get everything on first pass.