Do I HAVE to start looking for a bigger boat?

[Babylon]

I thought we had the perfect boat for our needs - an older Vancouver 27 in good condition, 1.3m draught, long keel, tough as old boots, seakindly, dry, safe (as boats go), good for shorter trips in the Solent, coastal sailing and hopefully longer-term cruising around the UK and Northern Europe, also good for keeping our mooring and keeping running and maintenance costs down generally.

There's three of us - me, SWMBO, and our 4-year old son - so three berths (two saloon and one quarter berth) should in theory be fine, and the cockpit is just big enough for the occassional fourth person on a daysail.

Although the V27 is roomy as small boats go with heaps of stowage for longer passages, the forepeak is given over to the heads and sail-stowage rather than a berth, and of course there's no aft cabin, so we're confined to living and sleeping all in one small space. Also, come down the companionway steps and if someone is at the cooker or sink, the other person can barely squeeze past let alone do anything else, while having an inquisitive and energetic little boy investigating all over the place ratchets up the stress levels.

I've invested a lot of time and some money (of course!) in this boat and don't really want to upgrade to anything bigger. Challenging as a long keel is in astern etc, I also prefer the more old-fashioned designs to light-displacement fin-keelers etc.

Having said all this, something with a proper forepeak and/or an aft berth, all within a little more beam would probably make a lot of sense - making family sailing a little less fraught, preventing mutinies and possibly saving my marriage!

Any ideas?

 

[fireball]

It won't resolve your sailing space issues - but we found a cockpit tent is a huge improvement for the inclement weather - once moored we put this up and it doubles our living space ....

 

[Evadne]

I would second the cockpit tent or boom tent. We made a "sun awning" which covers the cockppit and main hatch. It keeps vertical rain off you in the cockpit and helps kep the companionway area dry.
The Liz 29 is slightly smaller inside than the Vancouver, I think, we would struggle to live on board if there were more than the two of us despite having the forepeak as bedroom (and daytime stowage). Ideally, of course, your "living area" is the great outdoors, in the sun!

 

[David_Jersey]

Any ideas?

Not being funny, but what you have described is why Beneteaus etc are so popular.

But if you really like your boat I would go for the cockpit tent idea before swapping boats - and see how it goes. A good one - with plenty of windows......with the possibility of providing additonal berths, or at least a good day time lounging area.

The galley thing might be viewed as an asset, 2 yo not too far out of reach and less likely to slip into the cockpit unnoticed as he gets a bit older.


With regard to the 1/4 berth, if you call it your sons "Cabin" he will probably be around 10 by the time he realises it ain't really a "Cabin" so any "demands" from that side for his own area could be forestalled

 

[Sybarite]

Think 30'. At this length you have full headroom and loads of space for cruising without it becoming ruinously expensive. It's a great compromise and it's what I have done for the last 20 years. ;-) I know where there is a Feeling 920 for sale...!!

John

 

[dukes4monny]

I think that a Jaguar 27 would tick all of the boxes for you.........yes it is a fin keeler, but they are fairly heavily laid up.
Several of my friends with similar sized yachts have commented on the massive cockpit space as well as the ample space down below.
The forepeak has room for two....albeit a bit 'cosy'......the dining table can be replaced with a double berth. Originally ours had two good size quarter berths, but one of mine has been taken over for extra storage of fenders etc.
They have a huge sliding main hatch and a large forehatch which allows good circulation of air on those hot summer days (?).
They sail very well and are still used as charter boats in the med.

I'd be happy to take you out in mine if you wanted to try one for size.

 

[wotayottie]

Not being funny, but what you have described is why Beneteaus etc are so popular.

not really - all modern boats designs are more roomy. Bens were popular for the same reason Bavs are now - cheap by comparison and sound enough for casual cruising.

The OP is suffering from the problems of believeing the only good designs are the old ones, essentially based on what you could do with wood. Narrow hulls, long keels, short waterlines. Design has moved on but many sailors havent.

Almost without exception the long distance racers go safely with modern broad beamed fin keeled designs. And we're not talking here of pottering around in the channel. There lies the answer.

Or you could stick with old designs and buy a Vancouver 32/4. Wouldnt be long before the lack of space in this 32/4 footer by comparison with modern boats would be an issue with a growing family.

 

[Dyflin]

I think that a Jaguar 27 would tick all of the boxes for you.........

There is a Jag 27 berthed beside our Leisure 27 and the only advantage I can see in the jag over the the leisure is a bigger cockpit. The Leisure 27 has full standing headroom, good heavy boat with a smallish rig like the Jag 27 so no racing machine, but perfect for family sailing. Enclosed heads, full access from forecabin to companion way with full house down below, very much a traditional family designed boat. Plenty of money from the sale of a vancouver to have your pick of models.

Fantastic owners association too.

 

[David_Jersey]

not really - all modern boats designs are more roomy. Bens were popular for the same reason Bavs are now - cheap by comparison and sound enough for casual cruising.

Not sure that we are disagreeing, my point to OP was that Beneteaus etc do get a lot more accomadation into a given hull length and that is an attractive package for many in similar circumstances to OP. and, as you say, at a good cost. Neither a recomendation on my part, nor an automatic dismissal - but an idea for consideration.

 

[Woodlouse]

Almost without exception the long distance racers go safely with modern broad beamed fin keeled designs. And we're not talking here of pottering around in the channel. There lies the answer.

When you consider that over 50% of the last Vendee fleet failed to finish, with numerous dismastings and keel failures, I wouldn't quite say that the long distance racers go safely.
Even the Volvos would have destroyed themselves if it wasn't for the numerous stops to fix the boats.

Also, look at some of the Maxi's such as Alfa Romeo, Wild Oats and Maximus, also designed for offshore racing but a completely different hull shape to the Open and Volvo classes.

 

[Norfolknick]

Sounds like the perfect excuse to go larger - Half the fun is putting all that work in, its a bit like houses, think of yourself being temporary custodian, you have clearly done your bit with the Van, now its time to give someone else a go!

With a budget of 15-20K you could easily get yourself a Sadler 29 at a push a 32 or if you like the long keel a Twister or an older Rustler 31 that would have sufficient room to grow a bit more. Certainly with the bigger boat you can be innovative with the use of pipe cots in the saloon for when Junior has friends who can help justify the weekends away from mowing the lawn.

 

[Goldie]

My choice would be a Halmatic 30 - it would seem to meet your needs at less than half the price of the (very desirable) Vancouver 32. Another option might be a Marieholm 32.

 

[Babylon]

not really - all modern boats designs are more roomy. Bens were popular for the same reason Bavs are now - cheap by comparison and sound enough for casual cruising.

The OP is suffering from the problems of believeing the only good designs are the old ones, essentially based on what you could do with wood. Narrow hulls, long keels, short waterlines. Design has moved on but many sailors havent.

Almost without exception the long distance racers go safely with modern broad beamed fin keeled designs. And we're not talking here of pottering around in the channel. There lies the answer.

Or you could stick with old designs and buy a Vancouver 32/4. Wouldnt be long before the lack of space in this 32/4 footer by comparison with modern boats would be an issue with a growing family.

Thanks people for the feedback and helpful suggestions - and wotayottie has a good point about old and new boat design, which is certainly worth considering.

SWMBO and I are going to give this much thought over the next few months, factoring in:
* accommodation (forepeak and aft cabin?)
* hull form (long, semi-long, deep or shallow fin keel?)
* build quality
* age (and condition)
* cruising area
* any additional cost of purchase and keeping
* availability of mooring (hard to find over 30')

There's no point in going for a bigger long keeler (like the Vancouver 32/34) if we're going to spend the majority of time in coastal waters nearer to home rather than on the high seas, but I want to avoid the sort of lightly-built boat where proper seakeeping is sacrificied to marina-berth comfort.

If we are going to make a decent leap up in size, I'd rather keep the V27 one more season and spend time saving the money up to buy a good 1990s 32-34' (a late Sadler 32, or even a Moody 336?), rather than taking an intermediate step to 29 or 30'.

Cheers

Babo

 

[PetiteFleur]

As mentioned consider the Jaguar 27 or the Leisure 27 - both are good boats. I had a J27 for several years and went all over the Thames Estuary, Holland, France & Belgium. They are very strong - you give up before the boat will! And both have good owner associations for backup and help. You should be able to get a good one for about 12k or less.
If you do up-size, consider the Moody 33, mk2 better than the mk1, lots of space + a rear cabin for kids. We've taken our two grandchildren, 12 & 13yrs old, on coastal cruising and they love the rear cabin. The advantage of the M33 to the later 336's is that there is no 'walk thro' to the rear cabin and therefore both cabins are private. We even put a Porta Potti in so they can be totally self sufficient! You should be able to get a decent one for about 25k or less.
We jumped from the J27 to the M33 and never regretted it, good luck in your search.

 

[robertj]

agree with the sadler, this is my second and they get better the bigger you go. Your budget is the limit.
sadler 29's seem more pricier than the 32's which are a very good sea boat and fairly good accomdation. I have seen 32's as low as 15k. If you did decide to go up there is one in my port who is desparte to sell. Vancoover will shift easy as exceptional boat.


bob

 

[nimbusgb]

Silly people! He's a guy begging for an excuse to buy a bigger boat and you mob are trying to talk him out of it!

Surely between us we can come up with the perfect concience alaying excuse for spending said 4 year olds inheritance. ( perhaps the fact that 4 y/o may need a companion in the not too distant future ? )

 

[Romeo]

As mentioned consider the Jaguar 27 or the Leisure 27 - both are good boats. I had a J27 for several years and went all over the Thames Estuary, Holland, France & Belgium. They are very strong - you give up before the boat will! And both have good owner associations for backup and help. You should be able to get a good one for about 12k or less.
If you do up-size, consider the Moody 33, mk2 better than the mk1, lots of space + a rear cabin for kids. We've taken our two grandchildren, 12 & 13yrs old, on coastal cruising and they love the rear cabin. The advantage of the M33 to the later 336's is that there is no 'walk thro' to the rear cabin and therefore both cabins are private. We even put a Porta Potti in so they can be totally self sufficient! You should be able to get a decent one for about 25k or less.
We jumped from the J27 to the M33 and never regretted it, good luck in your search.

Out of intrest, how do you find the M33 for handling singlehanded? I have never sailed the Vanc27, but from the look of her presume that she handles very predictably when you abandon the helm, and that she is perhaps easier to tie up from, when you are saling singlehanded. Are the centre cockpit and high topsides a problem when going up from the Jag? Never sailed an M33, but it is on my list of possible West Coast boats for buying next year.

In my experience sailing with a young family is like sailing singlehanded only more so.

R

 

[Scillypete]

Plenty of choices given so far, but just to add a couple more, for a 27'er the accommodation on the Hunter horizon 26/27 is hard to beat and worth a look and for that little bit more space but still below the 30' mark why not look at the Westerly Konsort. Both should tick all the boxes you have mentioned.

 

[Leighb]

My choice would be a Halmatic 30 - it would seem to meet your needs at less than half the price of the (very desirable) Vancouver 32. Another option might be a Marieholm 32.

I would second the suggestion of a Halmatic 30 - well I would wouldn't I - we looked at a Marieholm 32, but one major dislike was what I refer to as the "spiral staircase" The companionway steps don't go straight down but take a half turn (to Stbd IIRC ) this struck me as being something of a hazard at sea, easily negotiated on one tack but dire on the other. Others with actual experience may care to commentr?

 

[Slow_boat]

I've not been disappointed in my sadler 29 after a season. I'm limited to under 30' on my mooring and we wanted a good sea boat, reasonably quick, decent headroom and heads, decent sized fore-cabin and double in saloon and an oven and that's exactly what we got. She is a joy to sail single handed and good accomodation for the size.

I looked at Leisure 29, Konsort etc etc and made what I am convinced was the correct choice.