Divorce Safety Question

[PhillM]

So get your new crew/partner to take their Day Skipper qualification. It's not a difficult one and will avoid any further issues with perceived safety. Quite honestly it will be far cheaper than any legal argument!

I no nothing about. Divorcee, never have been. The idea of a couple of weekends, sailing with your partner, while she gets DS doesn't seem like too hard a challenge. Regardless of the ex's demands, it's quite a nice way to spend time, perhaps go do it so where sunny. After all, ex cannot complain because it's what she asked you to do.

Yeah, I do get that this could be a tit for tat response. But of all the demands I've head about from exs of both sexes, it doesn't seem to be at the vindictive end of the spectrum.

 

[NormanB]

So get your new crew/partner to take their Day Skipper qualification. It's not a difficult one and will avoid any further issues with perceived safety. Quite honestly it will be far cheaper than any legal argument!

I totally agree with this as the best suggestion.
I think your ex's stipulation while formulaic is or would be seen as reasonable by a beak.

In the meantime if you requested for qualified crew - you would have plenty of volunteers I am sure. (Send me a PM ).

 

[bbg]

So get your new crew/partner to take their Day Skipper qualification. It's not a difficult one and will avoid any further issues with perceived safety. Quite honestly it will be far cheaper than any legal argument!

Good suggestion. However I suspect the ex's motivation is not really the safety of the children - it is making sure that the OP is impeded in enjoying sailing with the new GF.

 

[steve yates]

When your own children are with you, you will have a duty of care, I do not believe your wife can dictate how you exercise that duty of care.

 

[jac]

When your own children are with you, you will have a duty of care, I do not believe your wife can dictate how you exercise that duty of care.

True but look at how she will portray it to the judge. Taking too small children off to sea with no-one else capable of bringing them safely back home. IN the days of Elf n Safety he will see it as quite reasonable.

Get the paper for new GF. It then becomes evidence of Ex's unreasonable behaviour if she puts other obstacles in the way. You could then portray her as a bit of a bunny boiler character and that her thought process is flawed.

 

[Iminei]

My divorce was not easy. In the end it was easier (& cheaper) to comply with what seemed like unreasonable demands than to pay lawyers to argue the point. Sorry you are having to go through it. Maybe you could do a week in the med where the new SWMBO gets DS, you both get a holiday & you can take the kids afterwards. Hopefully you get to keep the boat!

 

[Lon nan Gruagach]

I suggest having a look at MCA MGN280 Annex3. Just to see how you and your new crew fit in.
You might use that information as a warning shot that if the point is pushed and becomes part of legal proceedings then you have ammunition for your case in the form of unreasonable requirements.

 

[JumbleDuck]

It is sad that this forum is dominated with a minority of forumites with many K of entries who will not alow the humble majority to put a word in edgewise .

They didn't manage to suppress your contribution, did they?

When your own children are with you, you will have a duty of care, I do not believe your wife can dictate how you exercise that duty of care.

Indeed. When two people have parental responsibility they can exercise it how they like, though I believe there is generally a requirement to agree about things like which school the children attend. Lots and lots of people sail one adult plus child(ren), and I don't think courts are interested in controlling parties in a divorce to that sort of extent.

 

[EdWingfield]

Rob, one day your girls will wish to invite a playmate - And then you become responsible for someone else's child. It's another level.

Although I am a lifetime unqualified apart from vhf, my instinct is for you to comply with Madam's request.

It should be possible to get new partner qualified for this season if she has the will.

She will need:
5 days sailing
100M passage
4 hours nightwatch
+ vhf (I think)

There should be opportunities for that experience here. eg. I am sailing Plymouth - Milford Haven sometime in April.

Good luck.

 

[snooks]

Thanks all for your comments.
To answer one question from Triassic, the hypocritical thing is that the ex could not have brought the boat home safely. No matter how many times I encouraged her to do her Day Skipper, she never got round to it. It is only an issue now she is jilted and new crew on the scene!

In which case, the ex's high horse they riding is legless. They can insist all they wants, but unless there is a court order in place instructing otherwise, the wishes and insistence of the other party are pretty much worthless (I'm not a lawyer, just my personal experience).

Point out to that when the two of you were sailing, your ex didn't hold that qualification. So expecting your new partner to hold a qualification they didn't hold is unfounded and unreasonable.

It will get you nowhere of course, as common sense went out the window a long time ago, but it will make you feel better.

Then get your new partner to pass their DS and wait patiently for your ex's next hurdle to be erected.

 

[howard easton]

Unfortunately I have had to divorce my crew / wife. It has all turned rather sour and she is trying to insist that, whenever I have our daughters (5 and 7) on board, I have to have another RYA Day Skipper on board in case I become incapacitated. The Yacht is a Sweden Yacht 45 with full safety kit. I am very experienced with over 20k miles as skipper, YachtMaster, etc. The worst injury I have had in 24 years is a cut toe. My new crew / partner is not a Day Skipper but has helmed commercial dive boats many times. She could easily get the boat to safety.

I am arguing that this is totally un-necessary and will effectively stop me from sailing with my daughters (who love it) because I will have to pay for a second skipper to be on board every weekend and holiday.

Am I being unreasonable? If not are there any useful sources of information that I could use to bolster my case?

Many thanks!

Get your new "partner" through a DS practical - its pretty noddy so wont be difficult. Incidentally was your ex a Day Skipper? If not you have a pretty strong case.
A 5 year old cannot be relied on to obey orders so if you were incapacitated and your new "fluff" had to handle the boat, it would be dodgy. Kids of that age need a minder. Indeed I suspect you would find the courts insisted on that. So in this case I would stop short of saying that your ex is just being difficult though she may be trying to be.

My D-I-L, with whom I get on well, will not let me take my grandsons ( 5&7) out sailing and TBH I am not pushing it that hard for exactly these reasons.

 

[NormanB]

Get your new "partner" through a DS practical - its pretty noddy so wont be difficult. Incidentally was your ex a Day Skipper? If not you have a pretty strong case.

There are clearly variable standards - mine was far from noddy and was in all respects a 5 day ( l o n g )beasting.
It was worth every penny.

 

[dom]

No-one here knows who or what sort of person the children's mother is, so no-one can impute her future actions.

Make life easy for yourself by acknowledging that she's not being unreasonable regarding the safety of your relatively young children, ensure your new woman/crew is up to the job of taking over if you're out of action at sea, and this should re-assure the mother.

If she does go on to find other excuses to restrict contact, then you'll have to draw the line somewhere.

The courts won't want to wade into the minute detail of how you or she ensure the children's safety and welfare when in your respective care, but if it does come to that then you'll be able to demonstrate that you've taken all steps to ensure this.

Most ex's eventually get on with their own lives - I'm sure your's will - but try to keep the whole thing as reasonable and fair as possible for as long as possible.

Hope this helps.

Jon

Having gone through the same process I would second all of this. Our separation was however completely amicable and we all remain great friends today. My kids were 11 and 7 at the time and my ex had some genuine concerns. The solution was to send the two nippers on an RYA sea safety course which they loved. They learnt about safety, how to summon help, (radio, DSC etc) and we had an always clip-on at sea policy. Unclipping before two steps down the companionway cost 2 weeks' pocket money. Once one got fined sibling loyalty seemed to break down fairly quickly and the one being laughed at would quickly dob the other in That summer we sailed the North Brittany Coast and beyond.

This may help, assuming your ex's concern is something to do with the fact that she has genuinely lost trust in you for whatever reason. If however it is really about something else then at least you have a clear evidential trail of honestly trying to sort it out.

One more thing: there are pluses and minuses with youngsters: they can be a dab hands at maneuvering boats into the marina etc and they seem to really enjoy island/port hopping. There are some downsides though: I had to keep several spare lifejacket rearming kits as pulling the other one's cord became something of a sport

 

[JumbleDuck]

The solution was to send the two nippers on an RYA sea safety course which they loved.

That sounds very interesting, but google is failing me. Can you point me at some more information?

 

[AngusMcDoon]

That sounds very interesting, but google is failing me. Can you point me at some more information?

http://www.rya.org.uk/courses-training/courses/specialist/Pages/sea-survival.aspx

 

[nrcoyle]

My new crew / partner is not a Day Skipper but has helmed commercial dive boats many times. She could easily get the boat to safety.

In this case wouldn't an ICC be the quick and easy way of showing DS level competence with the minimum of hassle

 

[JumbleDuck]

I think your ex's stipulation while formulaic is or would be seen as reasonable by a beak.

As far as I am aware it is very unusual for either parent to get any say in how the other parent looks after the child(ren) in "their" time. The OP does not have to submit a list of activities he would like to do for his soon-to-be-ex wife's approval and she does have to do so for his approval.

I think the OP should talk to his solicitor about this. Conceding that sailing is so dangerous that it requires two qualified adults to be present - or, to put it another way, that the OP is such a dangerous sailor that he needs another qualified adult present - may not be a wise thing to do.

 

[RichardS]

We don't know the full story behind the marriage break-down and there's no reason why we should .... but those Forumites who feel that the OP has a good case to reject the Mother's demands or that the OP should call her bluff and front it out etc. need to consider that it might be that the OP is "responsible" for the break-down and the Mother is the "innocent" party (please note that those two words are in quotation marks), in which case the Mother holds all the aces and calling her bluff etc is always going to end badly for the OP.

In the circumstances I have postulated, bending over backwards to comply might ultimately prove fruitless .... but all the other options are even worse.

Richard

 

[dom]

That sounds very interesting, but google is failing me. Can you point me at some more information?

Have a look at this link: it contains contact dets for RYA, RNLI,etc ...just give them a call and they'll point you to a local one.

The great thing about these courses is that they encourage the kids to be hands on, which in turn makes them more interested in the activity, more knowledgeable, better crew ...bit of a virtuous circle really.

Only downside is that they'll be pretty quick to pull you up on safety matters

https://dbscweb.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/rnli-dinghy-sailing-safety-guide.pdf

 

[langstonelayabout]

Obviously I'm jumping to a huge conclusion knowing nothing about any of these people - but I suspect her concern is more along the lines of exerting control and causing embuggerance. I would expect someone genuinely concerned about safety to simply veto the whole activity.

Pete

This is my perception of the situation too. Just wait for her to object to your unsupervised access to your children too.

Might it be an opportunity to find some reasons as to why she is unsuitable to have access to your children too? (and by the way, any divorce is a grotty affair, you have my sympathies. This will only be the thin end of the wedge)