Diving

[lw395]

For some underhull work, I've seen local pro's go without weight belts. The buoyancy holds you to the hull. If you are neutrally buoyant, you can find that the scrubbing brush stays still and the diver moves! or at least more effort is lost.
It is hard work underwater and you get through quite a bit of air, so a mini-B may not be enough if the boat is dirty, you might want a 12litre cylinder!
But if you can do the job often, it's quicker and easier.
I repeat the advice to get some training, it's fun as well as necessary and will pay for itself very quickly. Also a good way to meet diving 'buddy' who will come and help.

 

[neale]

Some great scrubbing suggestions in this!

Diving compliments sailing extremely well and is well worth getting trained and buying kit to keep on board.

Take a look at the BSAC website and find a branch near you. Better to be trained by BSAC, IMHO, rather than a commercial-only focused organisation.

If you tell the branch your short term objective, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't offer to help you out.

There has been made threads extolling the virtues of diminutive scuba gear; wouldn't touch it wth a barge pole, personally.

There are undoubted bargains to be had on auction sites. Common sense should prevail and don't be afraid to ask for advise from the branch.

Start a once/week basic training course over autumn and winter and you'll not have a mid-seaon scrub to worry about this time next year.

I have a Mini B and have done the specific Mini B training. I think the kit and training are well worth while. A normal PADI or BSAC will train you to dive to 18 metres and the course will take around 5 days. This is overkill if you only ever want to go under your boat. A specific Mini B course only certifies you down to 9 metres but can be completed, including checkout dives, in 2 days.

The kit is also perfect for on board as it is small, light and encased in a backpack.

 

[mattnj]

I wince everytime one of these post's appears....and the mini B's are mentioned!!
If you do consider a mini-b or other diving gear PLEASE PLEASE get some training.
Even though you are only 3/4ft under the surface you can do yourself some serious damage whilst breathing compressed air underwater due to lung over expansion injuries.

.

I dont want to sound like i am against diving safety, not at all, I was a while ago a fairly experienced diver, (PADI open water) but not been for 5 yeras, and was just wondering what the very serious dangers are of going under the boat a couple of foot, maybe i just cant remember, as i said was a few years ago now...obviously you need some basic training on using the kit from a shop....and the basics of breathing

Ready to be shot down in flames....

 

[mitchc]

, I was a while ago a fairly experienced diver, (PADI open water)
Ready to be shot down in flames....

mattnj,
I wrote my post as a very quick, basic warning in laymans terms just try and "scare" people to get some training.
I'm a dive instructor ( i teach BSAC, PADI, PSA/ TDI course's) with over 3,000 logged dives down to 80mtrs on trimix. I class myself as a fairly experienced diver.

I don't have time at the moment to do a full write up of the dangers of breathing compressed air under water, I'll try to do something this evening.
The dangers, as I'm sure you'll remember from your "basic" open water coure, are holding your breath whilst breathing high pressure air at depth and then surfacing.
A very quick explanation:
At the surface you are breathing air at 1 bar, for every 10mtrs (33ft) you descend the pressure increases by 1 bar (1 atm). To allow you to continue to inflate your lungs as if you were at the surface the scuba kit delivers air at the same pressure as the surrounding water, so at 10mtrs you are breathing twice the pressure/volume. Now imagine you hold you breath and go to the surface. What happens to the air in your lungs when the pressure is removed? That right it expands....to roughly twice the size!
Now if your lungs were a balloon you'd be fine, but they are not and they will burst causing all sorts of medical problems possibly including a very painful death.
Now if you work the figures back to 3 feet under you boat, you hold your big breath of compressed air and then go to the surface, your lungs will still have to expand due to the "high" pressure air in them. Even this small expansion can cause issues in some people.

As I wrote before, the above is a very basic explanation....which I can expand (ha, ha) on later if needed and if I get time.
Just a request to keep you all safe, please get some training before using scuba gear.

 

[coliholic]

What the others have said. Can't you just beach it or get into shallow water and do it from a standing position?

 

[mitchc]

I have a Mini B and have done the specific Mini B training. I think the kit and training are well worth while. A normal PADI or BSAC will train you to dive to 18 metres and the course will take around 5 days. This is overkill if you only ever want to go under your boat. A specific Mini B course only certifies you down to 9 metres but can be completed, including checkout dives, in 2 days.

The kit is also perfect for on board as it is small, light and encased in a backpack.

Neale, Just a couple of questions to someone who's done the Mini-B course. What certification do they give you? Is it from a recognised agency, or just something Mini-B wrote ( no problem with this as long as it's a thorough course) ?
I take it they warn you about the dangers of holding your breath as in my other post.
Is it just a swimming pool course or do they take you to open water (lake/sea) to experience what 9 mtrs actually feels like?

I'm only asking as some of the marketing I see for the Mini-B seems to imply you can just chuck it on your back and go diving!, which worries me.
I have sent a couple of emails to mini-B but never received a reply...

Just curious as to what their training entails, and have to agree if used correctly are invaluable. Cutting rope of props whilst holding your breath in limited visibilty UK waters is not a pleasant experience. On scuba it's simples!

 

[mattnj]

mattnj,
I wrote my post as a very quick, basic warning in laymans terms just try and "scare" people to get some training.
I'm a dive instructor ( i teach BSAC, PADI, PSA/ TDI course's) with over 3,000 logged dives down to 80mtrs on trimix. I class myself as a fairly experienced diver.

I don't have time at the moment to do a full write up of the dangers of breathing compressed air under water, I'll try to do something this evening.
The dangers, as I'm sure you'll remember from your "basic" open water coure, are holding your breath whilst breathing high pressure air at depth and then surfacing.
A very quick explanation:
At the surface you are breathing air at 1 bar, for every 10mtrs (33ft) you descend the pressure increases by 1 bar (1 atm). To allow you to continue to inflate your lungs as if you were at the surface the scuba kit delivers air at the same pressure as the surrounding water, so at 10mtrs you are breathing twice the pressure/volume. Now imagine you hold you breath and go to the surface. What happens to the air in your lungs when the pressure is removed? That right it expands....to roughly twice the size!
Now if your lungs were a balloon you'd be fine, but they are not and they will burst causing all sorts of medical problems possibly including a very painful death.
Now if you work the figures back to 3 feet under you boat, you hold your big breath of compressed air and then go to the surface, your lungs will still have to expand due to the "high" pressure air in them. Even this small expansion can cause issues in some people.

As I wrote before, the above is a very basic explanation....which I can expand (ha, ha) on later if needed and if I get time.
Just a request to keep you all safe, please get some training before using scuba gear.

as i said, not anti training at all, its a very good thing, and you dont need to do a full write up, just think using scuba a 3ft and making the simple statement of "breath out as you surface" is really all that is needed if someone really does want to just use it for the occasinal boat scrub/prop clean.

I fully agree it is a very dangerous passtime and needs massive respect but dont agree "scaring" people into training is the right approch either, i think they should understand that if you "did" buy some kit (because people will just do it anyway) then use at 3ft, and breathing out on way up there is little danger, in my opinion.

but kids, just to be clear, get some training....and anything over a couple of meters down gets VERY dangerous, very quickly...

 

[mattnj]

All of the above plus consider a Mini-Bee SCUBA kit (cheap from e-Bay).

Also, if you buy one of those red plastic back-door mats from your local store. they are made of 'Artificial Turf' type material. This works wonders on the hull without lifting the Anti-foul or Gel-coat.

What are you calling cheap? looks like £700ish to me....is that right?

 

[Alcyone]

mattnj,
I wrote my post as a very quick, basic warning in laymans terms just try and "scare" people to get some training.
I'm a dive instructor ( i teach BSAC, PADI, PSA/ TDI course's) with over 3,000 logged dives down to 80mtrs on trimix. I class myself as a fairly experienced diver.

I don't have time at the moment to do a full write up of the dangers of breathing compressed air under water, I'll try to do something this evening.
The dangers, as I'm sure you'll remember from your "basic" open water coure, are holding your breath whilst breathing high pressure air at depth and then surfacing.
A very quick explanation:
At the surface you are breathing air at 1 bar, for every 10mtrs (33ft) you descend the pressure increases by 1 bar (1 atm). To allow you to continue to inflate your lungs as if you were at the surface the scuba kit delivers air at the same pressure as the surrounding water, so at 10mtrs you are breathing twice the pressure/volume. Now imagine you hold you breath and go to the surface. What happens to the air in your lungs when the pressure is removed? That right it expands....to roughly twice the size!
Now if your lungs were a balloon you'd be fine, but they are not and they will burst causing all sorts of medical problems possibly including a very painful death.
Now if you work the figures back to 3 feet under you boat, you hold your big breath of compressed air and then go to the surface, your lungs will still have to expand due to the "high" pressure air in them. Even this small expansion can cause issues in some people.

As I wrote before, the above is a very basic explanation....which I can expand (ha, ha) on later if needed and if I get time.
Just a request to keep you all safe, please get some training before using scuba gear.

Seconded.

I really don't think that people undersand the effect of pressure on the human body.

An easy way to do think about it is to imagine lying on your back with a fishtank full of water on your chest. That's the pressure 1ft below the surface. Now go down 3 feet. That's three fishtanks full on your chest. That's the pressure you are under, at just 1 metre.


The other thing many do not understand is the difference between scuba and snorkelling. It's easily possible to kill yourself on scuba at a depth a lot shallower than you could snorkel.

I've said it before, a lot of people are not going to get trained before doing this, but have a read of a second hand BSAC sports diving manual and get a few ideas in your head - it will cost you peanuts on eb@y.

http://www.emedicinehealth.com/barotraumadecompression_sickness/article_em.htm

 

[deeb]

coliholic and others

What the others have said. Can't you just beach it or get into shallow water and do it from a standing position?

My second sentence in the original post "The boat is flat bottomed, beamy and cannot take its weight on its keel, and has a draft of 2.3m."

People with 22' bilge keelers may not understand the issue, but it just isn't that simple. There are only two ways of doing this job, (drive thru boat wash at Cowes excepted) one involve a crane-out and pressure wash, the other involves some swimming. The second of these options involves hiring a diver, or learning to do it oneself hence this thread, and my thanks to you all. My initial experiment proved to harder work than I was prepared for!

FWIW I had a chat with a local friendly dive shop, who'll Hire fins, masks and weights from about £15 a day which sounds to me like a good starting point. I accept absolutely that if I were to get some scuba gear (which'd be at a later point) some training would be a must (even tho' the guy in the shop said it wasn't necessary.) It just may be that in the end the training would consist of reading a book, and talking to some people, but that is a different subject.

I'll let you know how I get on, won't be until later in the week

I thank everyone for their input here, relevant or not......

 

[Alcyone]

Just a thought. Why not contact your local BSAC Club? They may decide that a dive under your boat may be good training. They are not allowed to be paid, but a donation to club funds might be ok, if they didn't want to do it gratis......

http://www.bsac.com/page.asp?section=2164

We helped out some sea scouts recover a minibus once, and dived to recover golf balls from a club lake for the golfers. All good fun.

 

[lw395]

If you're in the south of England, do a try-dive at Andark. Excellent fun and you learn a lot for very little money.
Trouble is it's addictive and you are in danger of having two expensive hobbies.

I expect dive centres elsewhere are equally good.

A PADI open water course is about £350 and 5 days of your time. Well worth it, just to do something different and new.
I would not recommend getting an old book and having a go, it's quite likely to be incompatible with the gear you buy. Trying to sort out even the most minor problem on your own is also fraught, much easier to work in pairs, let alone if something goes wrong.

The amateur, club based BSAC approach is better for some people, you get a club atmosphere, it's usually cheaper but takes a little longer to get through training. The commercial (in the sense of paid instructors) PADI training is very well organised and you benefit from instructors who instruct for a living, so they can teach as well as dive. It's also understood worldwide. In principle I favour the BSAC approach but the reality is that PADI 'pay and go' is a lot more compatible with my job etc.

 

[neale]

Neale, Just a couple of questions to someone who's done the Mini-B course. What certification do they give you? Is it from a recognised agency, or just something Mini-B wrote ( no problem with this as long as it's a thorough course) ?
I take it they warn you about the dangers of holding your breath as in my other post.
Is it just a swimming pool course or do they take you to open water (lake/sea) to experience what 9 mtrs actually feels like?

I'm only asking as some of the marketing I see for the Mini-B seems to imply you can just chuck it on your back and go diving!, which worries me.
I have sent a couple of emails to mini-B but never received a reply...

Just curious as to what their training entails, and have to agree if used correctly are invaluable. Cutting rope of props whilst holding your breath in limited visibilty UK waters is not a pleasant experience. On scuba it's simples!

The course consists of some theory/classroom stuff and test papers to ensure you have understood the theory.

Then in the pool for some pool sessions including mask clearing, buoyancy control and regulator removal and replacement.

Then its into the sea for 3 x 20 minute checkout dives down to 9 metres. (I was lucky and did mine in the red sea )

The training certainly covers the dangers of diving to these depths including not holding breath etc.

My certificate was issued by PSA, although I understand this may now have changed, but the course is approved by the HSE from what I understand.

I gather there can be a lot of scepticism from the PADI and BSAC fraternity regarding the Mini B kit and course, but I feel as long as you treat it for what it is, something between snorkelling and 18m open water diving, it is great fun, safe and very worthwhile.

 

[mattnj]

Seconded.

I really don't think that people undersand the effect of pressure on the human body.

An easy way to do think about it is to imagine lying on your back with a fishtank full of water on your chest. That's the pressure 1ft below the surface. Now go down 3 feet. That's three fishtanks full on your chest. That's the pressure you are under, at just 1 metre.


The other thing many do not understand is the difference between scuba and snorkelling. It's easily possible to kill yourself on scuba at a depth a lot shallower than you could snorkel.

I've said it before, a lot of people are not going to get trained before doing this, but have a read of a second hand BSAC sports diving manual and get a few ideas in your head - it will cost you peanuts on eb@y.

http://www.emedicinehealth.com/barotraumadecompression_sickness/article_em.htm

the forces at 3ft are all very well, but the training for diving at that depth, just for occasional boat cleaning/prop cleaning is still, probably as simple as dont hold breath on way up....the reality is that is all that is needed at 3ft, a £350, 5 day course is just crazy for boat cleaning....in my opinion....

this bloke wants to clean his boat, he isnt going down to 3, 5 or 10m for an hour or so...

to me its a bit like saying you MUST have a driving test, to drive a car in a field 25meters.

What happens on a taster to diving course? you go in a 2m swimming pool and splash about? same thing right?

Just to be clear, training is great i have done PADI openwater over about 6weeks and a load of diving, safety is first, but if you want to splash about at a foot or 3 under your boat to clean it, make sure you dont hold your breath on the way up, just keep breathing and you will find it makes an almost impossible job, easy peasy....in my opinion

 

[mitchc]

Matt, just a couple of really quick points:
Ok wasn't trying to frighten people as everyone should try diving!, but just trying to get the very important point across. My apoologies if my grasp of the theasurus is not quite what it should be!

As for your reccomendation for just telling people just to breath out is fine, but remember how difficult bouyancy control was when you first started (unless you were one of the very few who grasped it quickly) and how difficult it was to hover at 3 mtrs in 10 mtrs of water.
What if that person who thought "yeah I can jut breath out" but then finds himself at 5mtrs and descending, panics and bolts for the surface.

I've seen a couple of VERY bad incidents with lung over expansion injuries...it's not a pleasant sight.

But anyway, to everyone who's read these post's:
Please if you've never tried it, get yourself along to a dive centre/club and have a try dive. There's nothing like it earth! I've lost count of the ammount of try dives I've done in blue water (red sea, carribean etc) and the wide eye's of the students when the get a close encounter of the finny kind!
Go on, give it a try!!

 

[mattnj]

fair point, i will add to my suggestion, if you were going to do it, make sure its very shallow too...so you cant get in massive trouble and sink to a very deep bottom.

My main concern here, is that people do just do it, i know 2 boaty mates who have bought a diving set and used it with no training) and it is as important to tell them what they do need to do (like breath out! and make sure you are shallow) as it is to tell them not to....

like my kids, the more i say do it properly, do this, do that, the more they say p**s off dad and do it their way anyway (wrong of course)

 

[mitchc]

, safety is first, but if you want to splash about at a foot or 3 under your boat to clean it, make sure you dont hold your breath on the way up, just keep breathing and you will find it makes an almost impossible job, easy peasy....in my opinion

Matt, Sorry but I have to make one more post on this subject!
Your opinion is dangerous and hopefully the people who read this thread will understand the posts I and others have made about the dangers.
Maybe for someone like yourself who's had some training and then maybe 50(?) dives you will not have a problem, but someone who just grabs some gear and jumps in could have problems.

When I see posts like this I just feel that I have to try to get the message across and keep our sailing mates safe.

see you on/in the sea

 

[mattnj]

Matt, Sorry but I have to make one more post on this subject!
Your opinion is dangerous and hopefully the people who read this thread will understand the posts I and others have made about the dangers.
Maybe for someone like yourself who's had some training and then maybe 50(?) dives you will not have a problem, but someone who just grabs some gear and jumps in could have problems.

When I see posts like this I just feel that I have to try to get the message across and keep our sailing mates safe.

see you on/in the sea

this could go on forever....what are the potential problems in boats draft depth please, i said right at the beginning that i am happy to be corrected, but what do i actually need to know at shallow/pool depth other than the breath out we have already said.....happy to agree it is dangerous for safety's sake and agree not to take the risk, and have clearly said it is VERY dangerous at any depth over a couple of meters, but you are not actually saying what is dangerous or the potential problems are, you seem to just say it is dangerous for the sake of it, without explaining why and what can happen.....

800 ish people injured on the roads every day in the UK....all things in perpective...probably statistically safer as a beginner diver cleaning your boat that driving on an A road at night...


anyway, enough said, get some training

 

[mitchc]

this could go on forever....what are the potential problems in boats draft depth please, i said right at the beginning that i am happy to be corrected, but what do i actually need to know at shallow/pool depth other than the breath out we have already said.....happy to agree it is dangerous for safety's sake and agree not to take the risk, and have clearly said it is VERY dangerous at any depth over a couple of meters, but you are not actually saying what is dangerous or the potential problems are, you seem to just say it is dangerous for the sake of it, without explaining why and what can happen.....

As I put in my first post I haven't got the time right now to put chapter and verse on the dangers of breathing compressed air on here, but I'll try to explain it later in the week when I've more time. As a quick test though why not go down to your local pool with some scuba gear, drop down to 6ft and then go to the surface whislt holding your breath. You'll see what I'm concerned about. You will feel the effect from that depth, but be warned I've heard of case's where peple have had injuries ascending even from 3 ft! Maybe you'll be lucky, maybe you won't! Your choice!

I'll PM you later in the week with the full explanation, including all calculations and supporting evidence... bet you can't wait

 

[mattnj]

drop down to 6ft and then go to the surface whislt holding your breath. You'll see what I'm concerned about.

errr....already established the breathe out part....