Divided by a common language

westhinder said:
You may be aware that the American pronunciation boo-ey is much closer to the origin of the word, which is Dutch, boei. So while I have heard American English described as a random collection of deviations from (British) English, in this case they may be quite right.
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I was going to comment on the beautiful lines of the yacht depicted in your signature, Westhinder -- presumably yours? -- what an elegant spring in her sheer, and what an attractive, tight little butt (transom) she has, and almost -- really -- used, instead of the word "butt", a perfectly innocent American word starting with "f", when I remembered that this word is quite vulgar in your language . . . whew, caught it just in time.

Concerning American English being a "collection of deviations" from English English ("British English" is a misnomer; a nonsense phrase -- there is no common version of the English language throughout Britain which includes, after all, Scotland and Wales) -- linguists will tell you that it's more complex than that. Language evolves and changes everywhere, just in different directions and at different speeds. English English is in many respects more evolved and faster evolved than American English, so is a greater deviation from the common roots of both languages. Certain Appalachian Mountain dialects are said to be the closest existing dialects of English to English as spoken in Elizabethan times. Many of our "Americanisms" are old-fashioned relics of the English language of colonial times, which were abandoned in England but have lingered in the former colonies.

Another comment I, as one who speaks a few European languages, can make is that there is less diversity within the family of English-speakers, and less difference between Yankspeak and English English, than you find in most European languages. In Germany, in particular, you have actual cases where the local dialects of two adjacent villages are not mutually intelligible. Not regions, but villages in the same region, walking distance apart from each other. The differences between American English and English English are exceedingly slight (however funny they may be), compared to the differences among various dialects of German.
 
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Dockhead said:
I was going to comment on the beautiful lines of the yacht depicted in your signature, Westhinder -- presumably yours? -- what an elegant spring in her sheer, and what an attractive, tight little butt (transom) she has, and almost -- really -- used, instead of the word "butt", a perfectly innocent American word starting with "f", when I remembered that this word is quite vulgar in your language . . . whew, caught it just in time.
n.
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Phew indeed! Thanks we wouldn't want to cock up sweet fanny adams with vulgarity, now would we!
 
Dockhead is quite right. One of the best known (and to many Brits the most grating) examples of arcane Elizabethan US usage is "gotten" which, far from being an Americanism was used repeatedly by Shakespeare (or Shakspear, or whichever spelling you prefer. They clearly weren't obsessive about spelling in his time: his surviving signatures offer seven different versions, none of which included the current preferred style).

As to bouy, the reason for the different pronunciation is surely obvious: you leave a red boi to port but a red boo-ey to starboard. Not sure where that leaves the Manx, many of whom pronounce it in the American way.
 
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robp said:
But I have a problem with simple misuse such as "More then this" or "I should of known". Even English people that have gone to the States to work, wind up doing it.
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"More then this" and "I should of known" are ignorant, illiterate mistakes, and are equally unacceptable on that as this side of the Atlantic. No doubt the general process of degradation of language ability among the general population both here and there started with the age of television and continues through the age of computers and text messages. I have not noticed that the process is faster or more deeply engrained in either place. What is sad is that the prevalence of poor language skills everywhere extends further and further up the educational ladder, to the extent that it even seems that even most English people, even highly educated, highly paid Londoners, do not know that the word "its" has no apostrophe, when used as a possessive pronoun. I could probably think of a dozen similar examples which are widespread among even well-educated Yanks.

I am always shocked by this sort of thing in America, as I am in England (I have not lived in an English-speaking country in decades, and the language seems worse every visit). The Russians and Germans have much better language skills, than the Brits or Americans do, sadly. The Russians are particularly impressive -- there is little difference in the language abilities of everyone from the street sweeper to the university professor, and it is uniformly high (at least in Moscow). When you consider the extreme complexity of their language -- well, it is really humbling, when the street sweeper in Moscow has better language skills (and has read more) than the university professor in New York.
 
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DownWest said:
Big girls blouse is ozzy
A
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Nooooooooo! It is Yorkshire through and through, as depicted in the sit com Nearest and Dearest.

There was an Aussie TV show in the 90's called the Big Girls Blouse, but the phrase did not originate there.

But continuing the theme above about the Microsoft generation, I note that on these fora even the most dyed in the wool Briton is prone to spell the American way and daily posts appear with spelling such as program, license, color, etc.
 
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Dockhead said:
Jeez! How else would you pronounce "buoy", than "boo -- ee"? Someone please enlighten me, before I commit this ghastly faux pas, and offend someone! By the way, you guys seem to be always putting them out backwards around -- didn't anyone tell you "red right returning"?


"Buoyancy" -- "boy -- uns -- ee", accent on the first syllable.
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Gosh - how quaint!!


"Buoyancy" -- "boy -- uns -- ee",
yet
Buoy is "boo -- ee"?

You'd never find such abominations in Queens English ;)
 
Dockhead said:
... the word "its" has no apostrophe, when used as a possessive pronoun ..... The Russians are particularly impressive -- there is little difference in the language abilities of everyone from the street sweeper to the university professor .....
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Is not "its" a possessive adjective? As for Russian language homogeneity amongst the classless proletariat; the road sweeper used to be a professor!
 
According to my Californian other half
Branston Pickle is actually a relish.
A purse is a wallet
A hand bag is a purse
A shoulder bag (a bottomless pit!) is a bag.
Corned Beef (yummy) is dog meat!
Buiscuits are cookies
Tush is a butt
Left is right, but right is also right (she doesn't do port and stbd) thank goodness for GPS
Once thought a hedge hog was a porcupine (I can see the resembalence)
Curtains are drapes
And for some reason they always bring something somewhere rather than take it.
A car is a car, unless of course it's a manual, then it's a stick shift.
And why is it, that however long she is over here for she never looses the accent.

Bless her!
Bob
 
I've often wondered: does the American alphabet start with 'U'?
When installing / registering software which originates from over the pond and you get to the section where you select your country from the the alphabetical list, why is the 'United States' at the top of the list?
 
At the risk of starting a colonial war how about South African English! SWIMBO refers to "Now", "Now Now", "Just Now", Braai, Buckkie, Islands, Signals, "shame", refering to people as "Boys"! Not so clever when talking to PC Plod! Causes endless confusion so I often have to translate!
 
Dockhead said:
Certain Appalachian Mountain dialects are said to be the closest existing dialects of English to English as spoken in Elizabethan times.
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Similarly, I was told by one Spanish language teacher that when Jews were expelled from Spain in 1492 (same year as America discovery and Grenada repossession from the Moors), a lot of them went to Constantinoples/Byzantium, and that remnants of 15th century Spanish are still spoken today in Istanbul

In Germany, in particular, you have actual cases where the local dialects of two adjacent villages are not mutually intelligible. Not regions, but villages in the same region, walking distance apart from each other.
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Same as in Italy, someone speaking Sicilian, or Lumbard, or Venetian or whatever else is barely understandable to someone speaking "only" Italian, I'd say I would understand at most 10% of the words ? And often there are important differences even inside one single linguistic region. Mind you, a lot of adjacent towns and villages were still fighting battles against each other only one or two centuries ago...

It was mainly television, during the postWWII period, which taught Italian as a lingua franca to a lot of people.
 
BlowingOldBoots said:
Is not "its" a possessive adjective? As for Russian language homogeneity amongst the classless proletariat; the road sweeper used to be a professor!
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Indeed. Because I spelt it correctly. Most of you write "it's", confusing the contraction of "it is" with the neuter possessive pronoun (not adjective). They are different words altogether.
 
Dockhead said:
Indeed. Because I spelt it correctly. Most of you write "it's", confusing the contraction of "it is" with the neuter possessive pronoun (not adjective). They are different words altogether.
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I might well be wrong (surely are), but as I kept on seeing "its" written "it's" a lot of times, I checked on the Oxford English Dictionary and it said that "its" -the possessive pronouns- could also be written "it's", which was a bit surprising, like "it's speed is..." "it's colour is..." and the like



As I said I am surely wrong, but as I do not have access any more to the OED, could someone else check ?
 
Roberto said:
I might well be wrong (surely are), but as I kept on seeing "its" written "it's" a lot of times, I checked on the Oxford English Dictionary and it said that "its" -the possessive pronouns- could also be written "it's", which was a bit surprising, like "it's speed is..." "it's colour is..." and the like



As I said I am surely wrong, but as I do not have access any more to the OED, could someone else check ?
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You are probably not wrong, I am sorry to say. The classical edition of the OED, the only one I have, does not condone this horror. It is possible that some later versions, inspired by the Webster's Third to stop prescribing and start merely describing how people use language, including their mistakes, includes such a reference.

See: http://www.stormloader.com/garyes/its.html

http://www.cgl.uwaterloo.ca/~csk/its.html

http://www.buckingham.ac.uk/english/guide/its.html -- "The words it's and its are commonly confused: the apostrophe of omission (it's) is confused with the possessive (its). It's always means it is or it has , and is never to be used in place of the possessive its."

etc.
 
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