Dingy dangers

[Jacket]

Re: Now there\'s the rub

Expecting a fleet of dinghies racing in confined waters to keep that far away from you is in my view unrealistic. Given a stream of yachts into and out of harbours are often little more than 50 foot appart on a busy day.

When I raced, the standard proceedure was to use indicate to the yacht, usually with a quick smile and wave, that we'd seen him and would avoid him. When I'm in a yacht if the dinghy sailor does the same, I'm happy. Most do this. I only get twitchy with the ones who give no indication of having seen me.

How about showing a little understanding. Dinghies have to sail in sheltered waters. Many draw as much as a small yacht, and so are also restricted in where they can sail. They have as much right to be out there as we do. They risk loosing their lives if they get it wrong, we don't.

As for calling them maniacs. Bit OTT I'd have thought. I've found them no better or worse than yacht or mobo owners. Yes, you hear them yelling at yachts, but normally because the yachts yelled at them first (and usually quite unnecessarily, IMHO).



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[Guest]

Re: OTT?

Dunno. The lot we have to contend with are mirrors and toppers and the like, and they race from the clubhouse out, across the channel to the other side of the harbour and back. Either side of the channel all but dries on LWS, so they're not using the channel for the deeper water. They could just as easily run parallel to the channel, AFAIK.

Maniacs are the ones who put themselves and others at risk. If I have to crash stop with a cross wind, I risk going aground, and everyone behind me faces the same dilemma - go aground or hit the boat in front. Tried using sound signals, as defined in ColRegs? Great way to get a stream of verbal...

The odd individual I can cope with, but what really gets me is the club races - someone in authority has clearly laid out a course that is in direct contravention of ColRegs.

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[qsiv]

Re: Foul!

I cant think of many 'Flying' dinghys ..

You might have come across a Flying Dutchman - 20' long, trapezez, ex olympic class, daggerboard is about 6 foot deep, or alternatively a Flying Fifteen, 20' 2 man keelboat, no freeboard, cranky keel, draws close to 4'.

You didnt say whether you were motoring (the boat close to you was, you said). I'd argue that it was quite possible that either boat might have been just as restrained by it's draught as you, and they certainly had right of way over the boat near you which was motoring.

I do think it is unfiredly of race officers to set courses which unneccessarily cross primary channels - but sometimes it can be difficlt to avoid this altogether. I use to race Flying Dutchman out of Hamble. In those days races started in the river, raced out towards Lepe, Brambles or Lee and back - the river stretch was always nailbiting, and we always assumed it was our responsibility to avoid other boats (they were usually going so slowly we couldnt be sure what they were doing). I also sailed a Cherub, and was hauled up by the Harbour Master for exceeding the speed limit (he only caught me when we dropped the kite).. Nowadays kites are frowned on for bigger boats in the river....

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[Jacket]

Could it be argued that given (from your account anyway) the dinghy hadn't altered course recently, the fact that your needed to do a crash stop was your fault for not keeping a proper watch? After all, being constrained by your draught doesn't stop you slowing down/speeding up to avoid a collision, provided you see the other boat in time.

Not saying this necessarily is the case, just playing devil's advocate, cos I'm bored.

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[peterb]

Sorry, Ian, you missed your chance to really do something. The prologue to Section 2 of the Racing Rules points out that when racing craft meet non-racing craft, IRPCS holds sway. Under Rule 9(b), as someone else has said, sailing craft shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway, and under Rule 9(d) a vessel (any sort) shall not cross a narrow channel or fairway if such crossing impedes the passage of a vessel which can only navigate within such a channel or fairway. The dinghy offended against both parts of Rule 9, and even worse, showed his ignorance of the rules by what he said to you.

So instead of just complaining, put in a formal protest. If you don't know how, then ask the committee boat. When the protest is heard, he should be disqualified. Now that he would remember, and so would the others in the race.

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[Neraida]

There's and idea!! Bellow "Rule 9" at them at the top of your voice! Worth a try I suppose, but I suspect you will get blank looks or the "V" sign..
Excellent point tho, maybe a disqualification might have a resounding effect as you say.

 

[peterb]

You don't have to carry a cylinder. Most of the rules about identifying signals (fishing, not under command, restricted in ability to manoeuvre, etc) say "shall exhibit"; Rule 28 (Constrained by draught) says "may ... exhibit". And remember that under Rule 3(h) a vessel constrained by draught has to be power driven, so they can't retaliate.

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[iangrant]

I did complain to the boat - they seemed to take it on board?

Ian

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[ecudc]

Re: Dingy dangers-individual nutcases!

depends on speed of dinghy....I'd generally expect it to be a bit like a mini hitting a lorry (neither being undamaged but the mini doing a good impression of a squashed beer can if is hits at speed). The ones to really look out for are the International 14's etc with a long ramming pole at the front and a tendency for the crew to fly through the air as they pitch pole.

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[[2068]]

A couple of times I have had problems with dinghy encounters this season in Chichester Harbour, which is about average.

The main problem I have is that although it is possible to give way to a single vessel under sail, it is not so easy when surrounded by a fleet in a channel: how exactly am I supposed to give way to four directions simultaneously ?

When this happened, I did a crash stop ...(dinghy sailors please note: Motor Boats do not stop immediately even with 1500rpms in reverse, it takes a boat length or so at 5 knots unless I risk severe disabling damage)... the reward for which was some fairly robust criticism. Also, having stopped, I am effectively out of control and drifting rapidly at the mercy of the wind and current (again, in a Motor Boat, you can drift aground in seconds in a strong breeze or current), and in a very poor position to manoeuvre away from anyone else.

This is not a good state of affairs. If these encounters continue, one day I will not be able to select reverse quickly enough (outdrives do not always engage exactly when you tell them to), combined with someone tacking right under my bows, combined with other vessels making avoidance impossible, and the result will be whatever happens when 3 tons of fibreglass makes contact with a dinghy. It won't be because I'm not trying...

dave.


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[iangrant]

I did see him coming, I did slow down, he altered course as if he was trying to hit us! We all have the same responsibility to avoid a collision he was acting in a way as to cause a collision with no regard for others.

Ian

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[oldharry]

Re: True confessions

When you're racing a dinghy (please note the h), on the fine edge of control - or beyond, you do tend to be very narrowly focussed on your boat and your competitors and not as aware of your environment as you should be.

I think youve hit the nail on the head here Ken - its quite clear from many such encounters in Chichester and elsewhere that somehwere along the line basic seamanship has been lost in favour of a 'competitive edge' over the opposition - and the opposition is not just other competitors, but anyone sharing the water.

Chi HM does not want to regulate or restrict the activities of any Harbour User, but where the activities of one particular group not only annoy, but actually endanger others - and he will know perfectly well just how dangerous it has become on race days for the rest of us - then it is high time he stopped sitting on his hands and used his powers to regulate racing.

For a start, he could enforce the existing rules about dangerous behaviour in the Harbour, and insist that any dinghy causing problems to non-competitors is automatically disqualified. In my experience this could reduce the number of dinghies by up to 30% by the end of a race!



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[iangrant]

Re: True confessions

Well this guy was well and truly over the 8 knots!



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[Birdseye]

Re: True confessions

given that dinghies with centreboards draw 2 to 3 ft, and that most motorboats and a lot of sailing boats also do so, i dont see how the narrow channel bit applies. how does the dinghy sailor know whether you have a deep fin, or a bilge or even just a cetreboard? so it seems to me that the old power gives way to sail applies, particularly since power has the ability to spot a gap and go for it in a way that sail doesnt.

mind you, in my experience, all this is a bit theoretical. few power boats take any notice of irpcs let alone harbour speed limits. they arent sailed - they're driven just like cars, and often with as much agression as you see on the roads these days.

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[Guest]

Re: B*llocks!

Sorry, Birdseye, but you have clearly no knowledge whatsoever of how powerboats handle. Or of ColRegs, for that matter, since Rule 9 gives right of way to vessels navigating in a marked channel, irrespective of whether they are power or sail. The dinghy sailor doesn't need to know what sort of keel you or I have, or what we draw - he just needs to know what those pairs of red and green bouys we are steering between mean.

Powerboats (assuming you're not talking about 15' skiboats) don't have any ability to 'spot a gap and go for it' - there's the small matter of momentum to deal with, and off the plane, a powerboat is very slow to respond, and boats with outdrives also have dreadful steering response of the plane. Managing several tonnes of outdrive powered boat at 3/4/5 knots can be a tricky job, particularly with wind and tide to deal with, and as we can't open the engines up, we have no more horsepower to play with than you. Oh, and no rudder, so without the engines in gear, no steering at all. If you think it's like driving a car, come and try it some time...

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[iangrant]

Re: B*llocks!

Please note I was on a 37 foot sailboat (under engine at the time) so this isn't power boat agression!!

Ian

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[[3889]]

You can only protest if an interested party in the outcome of the race i.e. owner or crew of competing boat, even the race officer cannot lodge a protest . This incident is covered only by IRPCS.

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[oldharry]

Re: True confessions

Ian _ Harbour regs only apply the 8kt speed limit to vessels under power, so its perfectly legit for dinghies to career around at high speeds - I doubt if any are fitted with speedos anyway! CHC do invite us to call them up to either by phone or VHF to report 'breaches of harbour regulations' - though I dont see much point if there is no patrol in the vicinity. The big black RIBS would certainly catch most dinghies - I rather get the impression the Patrol crews relish the chance to open them to full chat once in a while!

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[DeeGee]

Sorry, but the RO can protest a boat, via the Race Committee - due to an incident observed. 60.2, 60.9.

<hr width=100% size=1>Black Sugar - the sweetest of all

 

[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

Re: True confessions

Ian _ Harbour regs only apply the 8kt speed limit to vessels under power, so its perfectly legit for dinghies to career around at high speeds -



really, it does not distinguish that on the speed limit signs, I have never heard of this...seems a little odd, does motor sailing count?

<hr width=100% size=1>Julian

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