Diesel

[Jim@sea]

Heating fuel is normally kerosene which is thicker and heavier than diesel with a higher calorific value. For example, you couldn't put diesel through a system meant for kerosene or vice versa.

Aparrently when they blend diesel and paraffin they take a long test tube, fill it with either diesel or paraffin, drop a ball bearing in and time how long the ball bearing takes to drop though the liquid. It should take 35 seconds for diesel and 28 seconds for paraffin, hence when ordering central heating fuel you as for either 35 sec or 28 sec.

 

[oldgit]

What is kerosene?

Kerosene is a robust, flammable liquid used by many businesses and homes worldwide to generate heat, light and power. Although referring to one fuel, it has many names, including kerosine, paraffin, heating oil, 28 second, kero, lamp oil, burning oil and boiler fuel.
The term ‘28-second oil’ is used as a term to distinguish kerosene’s viscosity, through a specific test of how long it takes 50ml of the oil to drip into a beaker. This also explains how red diesel gets its ‘35-second’ name.


Guide to Kerosene - The Heating Oil | Crown Oil

 

[TRH]

My Mac diesel Hot washer runs hotter and cleaner on kerosene than red diesel

 

[TwoHooter]

There are a few here who seem to be knowledgeable about fuels.
Does anyone know if any of the UK refineries are still producing genuine FAME-free diesel?
18 months ago I met a boat-owning fuel distributor who told me there is no undoubted supplier of FAME-free left, they all have get-out clauses in their contracts. I am wondering whether that is just back-covering or indicative that there is some FAME in everything now?
It matters a lot to me, it can take 2 years to empty our tanks. I treat them but still worry.

 

[rafiki_]

There are a few here who seem to be knowledgeable about fuels.
Does anyone know if any of the UK refineries are still producing genuine FAME-free diesel?
18 months ago I met a boat-owning fuel distributor who told me there is no undoubted supplier of FAME-free left, they all have get-out clauses in their contracts. I am wondering whether that is just back-covering or indicative that there is some FAME in everything now?
It matters a lot to me, it can take 2 years to empty our tanks. I treat them but still worry.

Michael, I can ask an old colleague at BP. It may take me some time to get an answer given the holiday period.

 

[Assassin]

So you cant use heating oil in Bobcat i have .

Not if you want the injection system to last.

 

[Assassin]

Red diesel is called 35 second, while heating oil is 28 second. They are most definitely different things. Red diesel is basically the same as road diesel.

Red diesel is exactly the same as road diesel as they only make 1 type then add stain to it.

In much the same way BOC make oxygen, they only make 1 kind and use it as an indistrial gas for oxy acetylene work and medical air, the only difference is the cylinders lining.

Why make 2 different products when you use economies of scale to produce one.

 

[NormanS]

Red diesel is exactly the same as road diesel as they only make 1 type then add stain to it.

In much the same way BOC make oxygen, they only make 1 kind and use it as an indistrial gas for oxy acetylene work and medical air, the only difference is the cylinders lining.

Why make 2 different products when you use economies of scale to produce one.

Yes, diesel is diesel, but some have varying amounts of bio added to them.

 

[TwoHooter]

Michael, I can ask an old colleague at BP. It may take me some time to get an answer given the holiday period.

Yes please - no rush!
I prepared some notes about boat diesel some time ago - I wonder if he would be willing to look at these?

 

[jwfrary]

Word of warning, we had a fleet of boats operating, out of a UK port, they were being supplied with what turned out to be heating oil, and not the specified fuel that should have been supplied ie. Diesel.

The boats all developed Injector problems within a thousand hours, and bearing in mind it was 6 boats with 18 injectors in each boat, something like 60,000 in parts, that was a significant expense!

It's always worth enquiring what's actually being supplied, especially if you have common rail or unit injector engines!

 

[rafiki_]

Yes please - no rush!
I prepared some notes about boat diesel some time ago - I wonder if he would be willing to look at these?

Michael, I got this from an old colleague who is now a fuels advisor at BP.

BP no longer sell FAME-free product to retail or B2B. However you can try Coryton Advanced Fuels or Petrochem Carless (Haltermann) as specialist fuel suppliers but they may be expensive. On the other hand my colleague advises that "wholesale suppliers such as Certas may sell a B0 product - and they do sell FAME-free gas oil. Also other suppliers that focus on the heating oil/agricultural vehicles market."

Alternatively you can use retail additives that contain a combination FAME oxidation inhibitor (antioxidant) and biocide which might work out cheaper depending on the volumes involved. Having looked at the prices being charged for Marine 16 additive, I might go into a post-retirement business here given what I know is in them!

So in a nutshell, FAME-free and 0% bio diesels are still available, but not from mainstream suppliers. You might find an agri supplier that has a fuel to suit your engine specs, however the best advice is to use an additive like Marine 16.

I hope this helps?

 

[TwoHooter]

Thanks!
I have linked to my very out of date notes about diesel - any chance your friend would have a look at them?
Boat fuel - diesel.pdf

 

[rafiki_]

Michael, I will have a go.

 

[Assassin]

Yes, diesel is diesel, but some have varying amounts of bio added to them.

No they dont, theoretically they do but in reality the bio content is always the minimum amount they can get away with as it is expensive to buy and add to the fuel. When bio content came out many used around 5% bio element but all major suppliers are now down to around 3% bio.

 

[Assassin]

Michael, I got this from an old colleague who is now a fuels advisor at BP.

BP no longer sell FAME-free product to retail or B2B. However you can try Coryton Advanced Fuels or Petrochem Carless (Haltermann) as specialist fuel suppliers but they may be expensive. On the other hand my colleague advises that "wholesale suppliers such as Certas may sell a B0 product - and they do sell FAME-free gas oil. Also other suppliers that focus on the heating oil/agricultural vehicles market."

Alternatively you can use retail additives that contain a combination FAME oxidation inhibitor (antioxidant) and biocide which might work out cheaper depending on the volumes involved. Having looked at the prices being charged for Marine 16 additive, I might go into a post-retirement business here given what I know is in them!

So in a nutshell, FAME-free and 0% bio diesels are still available, but not from mainstream suppliers. You might find an agri supplier that has a fuel to suit your engine specs, however the best advice is to use an additive like Marine 16.

I hope this helps?

Rafiki, there has to be FAME free diesel for many reasons and while many are being used in specific environments such as fuels testing or specific industrial uses, these are produced in small batches at specific times, in reality you generally have to have a "load" or specific minimum quantity and for marine use this would be economically unviable, it is still available.

Then again leaded petrol is available if you know where to go and can take a minimum order quantity.

 

[rafiki_]

Rafiki, there has to be FAME free diesel for many reasons and while many are being used in specific environments such as fuels testing or specific industrial uses, these are produced in small batches at specific times, in reality you generally have to have a "load" or specific minimum quantity and for marine use this would be economically unviable, it is still available.

Then again leaded petrol is available if you know where to go and can take a minimum order quantity.

Agreed, but I don’t think people want to pay £lots/litre for special fuels? I guess Two Hooters Nordhaven will need 1000+ litres to fill?

 

[TwoHooter]

Agreed, but I don’t think people want to pay £lots/litre for special fuels? I guess Two Hooters Nordhaven will need 1000+ litres to fill?

We would willingly pay more for guaranteed FAME-free fresh diesel of good quality. Here's why:-

Coracle's tanks hold 3,482 litres, range about 348 hours, theoretically 2,500 miles but say 2,000 miles with reserves.

We took over the boat in September 2015 at which time it had about 1,400 litres on board, white diesel from Sweden, and we have re-fuelled as follows:-

• 24/02/16 : Camber Quay, Portsmouth : boat afloat : 1,902 litres : road tanker from Certas : guaranteed FAME-free and fresh from the rack at Fawley
• 13/11/17 : Padstow : boat afloat : 350 litres : fish dock pump : no idea what the fuel was but it burned clean
• 24/05/18 : Southwold : boat afloat : 2,100 litres : road tanker from Butler Fuels, part of Certas : guaranteed FAME-free, the driver said he was on what he called the "milk run" filling up fishing boats
• 17/09/19 : Guernsey : boat on the hard : 2,378 litres - road tanker from Rubis who have a monopoly on the island : stated to be FAME-free

Some boat owners might think these uploads are large but many people who have oil-fired central heating in a house will think them normal. We are genuine 60/40 consumers, our 8kW generator and diesel heater probably burn 40% of our fuel.

FAME-free diesel is important to us because of the length of time it takes to consume our fuel. I always ask questions about what fuel we are getting and if I can't have an intelligent conversation about the fuel with the suppliers I decline the supply. We have never refuelled in a marina because they never seem to know anything about what their diesel is or how long it sits in their tanks. I always get fobbed off with platitudes when I ask.

I have always treated our diesel with Stanadyne Performance Formula which does NOT emulsify water, and I now also add a biocide because I am less confident that the fuel is truly FAME-free. I check the supply tank drain for water frequently and change our Racor filters at the prescribed intervals to ensure that their water-repellent media remain effective. I polish the fuel occasionally using the on-board transfer pump and intermediate 30 micron filter. I have never found even one drop of water or any sign of dieselbug in our fuel or filters so I think I have got away with it so far. (Sidebar: if a boat has more than one fuel tank and no on-board fuel polishing system I think one of the most useful improvements an owner can make is to add this).

Cost is almost irrelevant to us. Compared to most Nordhavns we are pathetic because we don't go far afield, just English & Welsh coastal cruising, Ireland, and the Channel Islands. But we use the boat often and have visited 52 different destinations. Even so diesel is the smallest element of our boating expenses, by far. The amount of money we have spent on fuel in the 5 years we have owned the boat is about 16% of what we have spent on marina and berthing fees alone, to say nothing of repairs and maintenance, insurance, etc. Fuel costs are relatively trivial to us, because we pay road tanker prices, not marina pump prices. We would willing pay more for guaranteed FAME-free diesel.

 

[NormanS]

I get my diesel from the supplier who supplies many of the West Coast Calmac ferries. My understanding is that Calmac tried fuel with some level of Bio, didn't like it, and demanded and got good old fashioned Marine Diesel, which at least up until my last purchase, still had lots of lovely sulfur in it. (Good for engine - bad for Eber).