CX54WEK
New member
So you dont consider electricity or hot water as a domestic use in a travelling leisure boat but in a houseboat that is moored up electricity generation and hot water are domestic use?
Diesel vs Petrol 2011!
- Thread starter ricky_s
- Start date
So you dont consider electricity or hot water as a domestic use in a travelling leisure boat but in a houseboat that is moored up electricity generation and hot water are domestic use?
GrahamHR
Well-known member
Yes, if the permanently static houseboat is someone's home, where someone lives, it's no different to a house or static caravan. My next door neighbours have a touring caravan and a (quiet) petrol generator they use when they are in remote areas; I don't expect they can get reduced duty fuel for their generator, which is used for providing heating, hot water and light, even though the fuel is not being used for propulsion.. Why should there be a difference between the treatment of for example their circumstances and those of boat owners?
[2068]
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The previous duty system distinguished between fuels used as ROAD FUEL and fuels used OFFROAD.
A boat doesn't travel on roads.
The EU stepped in, and "harmonised" the system, but because the UK has such a high level of duty for ROAD FUELS, the 60/40 compromise was negotiated, on the basis that killing the goose that provides the tax revenue probably wasn't in anybody's interest.
As it is, the goose is looking very heavily burdened, and is staggering somewhat - have you seen how empty some of the marinas around here are ?
A boat doesn't travel on roads.
The EU stepped in, and "harmonised" the system, but because the UK has such a high level of duty for ROAD FUELS, the 60/40 compromise was negotiated, on the basis that killing the goose that provides the tax revenue probably wasn't in anybody's interest.
As it is, the goose is looking very heavily burdened, and is staggering somewhat - have you seen how empty some of the marinas around here are ?
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GrahamHR
Well-known member
True, but this was not only true for diesel powered boats. Yet the previous duty system discriminated against petrol powered boats, compelling their owners to pay road duty and the discrimination potentially continues, if the 60:40 split is not a true. representation of the average propulsion:heating ratio of the use of the fuel.
CX54WEK
New member
They are not being disciminated against. They chose to own a petrol generator for which there is no tax rate reduction on the fuel. Same goes for petrol boat owners, they made the choice to buy a boat which has higher fuel costs.
[2068]
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I think you’ve got this the wrong way around. There’s nothing fair nor discriminatory about taxation: it’s a device to collect revenue for the government that is also used to encourage or discourage certain behaviours, given that a market exists.
The market for motorboat fuel in totality is tiny!
The problem with your “off road petrol” argument is that the market never existed in a large-enough-to-be-viable form in the first place, whereas with diesel, there was enough volume in marked heating oil, and diesel oil for commercial vessels, for leisure vessels to be able to piggy back onto the existing infrastructure.
The market for motorboat fuel in totality is tiny!
The problem with your “off road petrol” argument is that the market never existed in a large-enough-to-be-viable form in the first place, whereas with diesel, there was enough volume in marked heating oil, and diesel oil for commercial vessels, for leisure vessels to be able to piggy back onto the existing infrastructure.
GrahamHR
Well-known member
Discrimination works both ways; positive or negative. Either the petrol users are being discriminated against, or the diesel users are being discriminated in favour of. Either way, it's discrimination so inherently unjust.
joliette
New member
I agree, the main issue is nothing to do with discrimination against petrol boat owners. The main issue is that - from the perspective of HMRC - the vast majority of diesel boat owners, claiming the financial benefit of the 60/40 split, could very well be committing fraud.
[2068]
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The fact that HMRC have issued explicit guidance that transactions at 60/40 will not be queried, tells you that they are happy with this level of duty as an average. Operating within these guidelines is not any kind of fraud - in any case, almost no boats have any means of even estimating the true split.
ian38_39
Member
I have asked the HMRC to justify the reasons for not being able to claim the tax back on petrol.
They couldn't.
They couldn't even find fault with the argument that the percentage of petrol used in a petrol boat to heat water and charge battery's was just as high as that in a diesel boat.
The end result was a bit like PMT in that it JUST IS
If a discount is given for domestic use then it is just as valid whatever the fuel.
If HMRC want to introduce a second rate of taxation for leisure boats using red diesel then fine, just be open and honest about it instead of potentially criminalising a very high proportion of diesel boat owners, who are without question committing fraud.
If you go off for a two week break on the boat and fill your tanks three times do you still claim 60/40? of course you do and in doing so you are claiming to have used anything up to £1000 in domestic use in 2 weeks, in the summer and on a boat with a small diesel heater, a shower, a bit of washing up, that is if you have even eaten on the boat, and battery lighting for a telly and a couple of hours of 10w light bulbs, that is if you have not changed them to LED.
Any claim for domestic use that you know to be incorrect is tax fraud, whether HMRC are prepared to ignore it or not, it still leaves the potential for prosecution.
Maybe it could be the new tag line. "use red and join the lottery to win a two year all expenses paid break courtesy of HM prison services".
They couldn't.
They couldn't even find fault with the argument that the percentage of petrol used in a petrol boat to heat water and charge battery's was just as high as that in a diesel boat.
The end result was a bit like PMT in that it JUST IS
If a discount is given for domestic use then it is just as valid whatever the fuel.
If HMRC want to introduce a second rate of taxation for leisure boats using red diesel then fine, just be open and honest about it instead of potentially criminalising a very high proportion of diesel boat owners, who are without question committing fraud.
If you go off for a two week break on the boat and fill your tanks three times do you still claim 60/40? of course you do and in doing so you are claiming to have used anything up to £1000 in domestic use in 2 weeks, in the summer and on a boat with a small diesel heater, a shower, a bit of washing up, that is if you have even eaten on the boat, and battery lighting for a telly and a couple of hours of 10w light bulbs, that is if you have not changed them to LED.
Any claim for domestic use that you know to be incorrect is tax fraud, whether HMRC are prepared to ignore it or not, it still leaves the potential for prosecution.
Maybe it could be the new tag line. "use red and join the lottery to win a two year all expenses paid break courtesy of HM prison services".
Cheekybrat
New member
Hi Graham
what you have to understand is the governments way of keeping us all in check. It was always quoted as "divide and conquer". Pick on one and point out to others how bad they are, you see it everyday: benefit cheats go to prison, MP's fiddling expenses don't even need to say sorry. 4x4 drivers pay more road tax (what a good one that was until on the quiet lots of normal cars went into the same bracket). Smokers are using up NHS resources, then fat people are using up NHS rersources, then old people are using up NHS resources:- the truth is foreigners actually use up more than 50% of NHS resources but they won't tell you that one
you want more tax on diesel, thats fine but just remember you can't beat the system, you can only join it and try to pay less than 90% tax
Nick Heath
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GrahamHR
Well-known member
HHmm.
I want to minimise my tax bill, who doesn't? Blatant discrimination of the tax regime (+ve/ -ve) doesn't encourage honesty, which is something I refuse to compromise on. I do less than 5.000 miles per year in my car. My wife does 50,000 + miles per year in her cars, changed every 18 months or so. She pays something like £120 per year road tax, maybe less next year as she has supposedly low emission cars; but of course the actual emiisssion are directly related to the number of miles driven ( too obvious a point for our government and politicians to understand).
I pay £430+ per year "road tax" for my 2006 car. My wife's car(s) produce much more CO2 than mine does due to the number of miles she drives every year. Why do I do it? The extra road tax is less than I'd lose in a yesr if I bought a new car with the same power/ performance.. Road tax has absolutely nothing to do with actual emissions/ CO2/ that global warmning thing that cannot be mentioned.
Graham
I want to minimise my tax bill, who doesn't? Blatant discrimination of the tax regime (+ve/ -ve) doesn't encourage honesty, which is something I refuse to compromise on. I do less than 5.000 miles per year in my car. My wife does 50,000 + miles per year in her cars, changed every 18 months or so. She pays something like £120 per year road tax, maybe less next year as she has supposedly low emission cars; but of course the actual emiisssion are directly related to the number of miles driven ( too obvious a point for our government and politicians to understand).
I pay £430+ per year "road tax" for my 2006 car. My wife's car(s) produce much more CO2 than mine does due to the number of miles she drives every year. Why do I do it? The extra road tax is less than I'd lose in a yesr if I bought a new car with the same power/ performance.. Road tax has absolutely nothing to do with actual emissions/ CO2/ that global warmning thing that cannot be mentioned.
Graham
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AndieMac
Well-known member
For somebody who doesn't need to justify his purchase, you do seem to be going to an awful lot of effort on this thread doing just that.
My thoughts as well, perhaps there is an unresolved issue about an incorrect descision made at time of purchase
CX54WEK
New member
My thoughts as well, perhaps there is an unresolved issue about an incorrect descision made at time of purchase
So incorrect that we still have the boat 3 years on and have completed more hours cruising so far, than some will do in a lifetime
The HMRC have indicated that a 60/40 split is what they see to be a fair split of diesel useage across the wide range of leisure boat uses in the UK. If that is what they are happy with people claiming than that is what I am happy claiming.
"If you go off for a two week break on the boat and fill your tanks three times do you still claim 60/40? of course you do and in doing so you are claiming to have used anything up to £1000 in domestic use in 2 weeks, in the summer and on a boat with a small diesel heater, a shower, a bit of washing up, that is if you have even eaten on the boat, and battery lighting for a telly and a couple of hours of 10w light bulbs, that is if you have not changed them to LED."
Ian, you may be used to using these typs of quantities of fuel with your twin petrol engines but we are not with our frugal diesel engine.
oldgit
Well-known member
"the truth is foreigners actually use up more than 50% of NHS resources but they won't tell you that one"
a further "truth" could be that 50% of staff at all levels running the NHS (most probably far more ?) are also "foreigners" but you forgot to mention that one.
a further "truth" could be that 50% of staff at all levels running the NHS (most probably far more ?) are also "foreigners" but you forgot to mention that one.
cem
New member
how exactly did we get to the NHS
other than that some of the people on this forum may need their assistance for the heart conditions they will give themselves if they keep arguing the way they do
other than that some of the people on this forum may need their assistance for the heart conditions they will give themselves if they keep arguing the way they do
lovezoo
New member
I think he breathed in a few diesel particulates too many.how exactly did we get to the NHS
Fire99
Well-known member
how exactly did we get to the NHS
other than that some of the people on this forum may need their assistance for the heart conditions they will give themselves if they keep arguing the way they do
I love contentious threads. Read the first post then skip 50 pages and find they are arguing about something completely different..cem
New member
in a moment of madness i actually read (well skimmed) the whole thing....maybe that is where i am going wrong
Fire99
Well-known member
in a moment of madness i actually read (well skimmed) the whole thing....maybe that is where i am going wrong
You are mad mad mad.