Diesel vs Petrol 2011!

[CX54WEK]

On sub 25ft sportscruisers the difference has been marginal since the loss of red. If you take into account purchase, servicing, repairs,fuel and depreciation (including finance costs) petrol and diesel are pretty much the same (especially if you buy fuel at Tesco).

But the clue is in the name, sportscruisers are ment to be sporty, 170hp oil burner just isnt enough for anything but cruising, minimum needs to be 230hp, but for decent performance you need 260hp+ (even I admit that the 7.4l 300hp V8's are a bit over the top and heavy).

I have used an Aquador 23 with a KAD 32, great at the pumps, but slow, smelly and smokey.

I wont even begin to justify over 25ft (Possible exception of single Bayliner 285) or twins. Used a twin petrol V6 Regal 2860 for a season, it was staggering how much fuel you had to chuck at it !

But red diesel has not been lost. Our current supplier is charging 88ppl for red diesel and is local to the marina. The nearest source of petrol waterside which is a good days cruising away is charging 157ppl, not too far off twice the cost plus a days cruising either way to get to it.

30 knots is plenty fast enough for the cruising that we do. We also have a KAD32 and it has proven to be nothing but reliable. It is no slouch but there are faster boats around and it doesnt smoke other than a puff at start up when cold. Yes diesel is smelly when filling up but other than that the diesel heating is more noticaby smelly. The KAD32 may not be the quietest of engines but for the sheer reliability of it I think we will stick with it.

 

[CX54WEK]

Another angle on this issue is the decision you would make if restoring a classic petrol engined boat ... Think about it like this: If you found yourself with say an engineless Ferrari 512BB would you drop in a diesel for the reasons stated above? I think not!

Why would you buy an engineless Ferrari in the first place?

 

[Andrew_Fanner]

I know of another Oceanfarer where the owner has fitted 2 x Jag V12 petrol engines on legs. The comment made was along the lines of "don't watch the fuel bills, just approeciate the sound and performance"

 

[Chris_d]

But red diesel has not been lost. Our current supplier is charging 88ppl for red diesel and is local to the marina.

Presumably thats not 60/40 which is about £1.20 most places, if your paying 88ppl I'd keep quiet if I was you.

 

[CX54WEK]

Presumably thats not 60/40 which is about £1.20 most places, if your paying 88ppl I'd keep quiet if I was you.

It is indeed at 60/40. We have a few suppliers within a few miles so competition is brisk to say the least. The cheaspest supplier at the moment is 88ppl at 60/40, and the most expensive 108ppl at 60/40. It pays to shop around where possible.

 

[landlockedpirate]

But red diesel has not been lost. Our current supplier is charging 88ppl for red diesel and is local to the marina. The nearest source of petrol waterside which is a good days cruising away is charging 157ppl, not too far off twice the cost plus a days cruising either way to get to it.

30 knots is plenty fast enough for the cruising that we do. We also have a KAD32 and it has proven to be nothing but reliable. It is no slouch but there are faster boats around and it doesnt smoke other than a puff at start up when cold. Yes diesel is smelly when filling up but other than that the diesel heating is more noticaby smelly. The KAD32 may not be the quietest of engines but for the sheer reliability of it I think we will stick with it.

My comments about red being lost were aimed at when it had a larger tax exemption. At that time diesel was about 1/3 price of petrol. It did hurt when the next boat was paying 30ppl and I was paying 95ppl for petrol.

I'm impressed with the price you are paying, most places seem to be around £1.10 - £1.20 for 60/40 red. I have just filled the boat with petrol this morning and paid £1.32 at Morrisons (They also throw in a couple of free car washes )

At these prices the difference is negliable, especially considering a similar boat to mine with a diesel would have been 10-15k more.

 

[CX54WEK]

My comments about red being lost were aimed at when it had a larger tax exemption. At that time diesel was about 1/3 price of petrol. It did hurt when the next boat was paying 30ppl and I was paying 95ppl for petrol.

I'm impressed with the price you are paying, most places seem to be around £1.10 - £1.20 for 60/40 red. I have just filled the boat with petrol this morning and paid £1.32 at Morrisons (They also throw in a couple of free car washes )

At these prices the difference is negliable, especially considering a similar boat to mine with a diesel would have been 10-15k more.

£10-15K is a big chunk of money to find when buying a boat but with the amount of use we get out of our boat the ease of finding diesel fuel far outweighs the cheaper boat. We were offered an S23 with a petrol when we bought NC. It was £10k cheaper than the one we bought. We may never use £10k worth of diesel, but the benefits still far outweigh the extra cost involved in the initial purchase of the boat.

Im impressed that you can find petrol for £1.32. Our cheapest around here is £1.37 and rising by the day it seems

 

[landlockedpirate]

Im impressed that you can find petrol for £1.32. Our cheapest around here is £1.37 and rising by the day it seems

Its going down here, 10ppl in the last 2 weeks.

 

[CX54WEK]

Its going down here, 10ppl in the last 2 weeks.

Oh well. You win some you lose some.

 

[joliette]

Oh well. You win some you lose some.

... and I wonder how long it will be before HMRC stop the 60/40 split?

 

[GrahamHR]

I could well understand why they would; unless boats have separate tanks for heating and propulsion use, Without that, there is a possibility for boaters to abuse the system; not that leisure boaters with diesel engines would (of course they would and do !!)

Maybe leisure boaters with diesel eigined boats should pay full tax paid diesel for the propulsion fuel, to be honest commercial users like fishermen should as well ( as do truckers) Then, have to take on board central heating oil for heating in jerry cans; as a boater using petrol and paying service station petrol prices, it seems fair to me !

Graham

 

[ian38_39]

OK done this lots of times before and think the justifying of the purchase is much more weighted to the diesel than the petrol owner.

Having run two twin petrol boats over the last 5 years I can put my hand on my heart and say the difference in running cost over the year between our current twin V6 34' petrol flybridge and the equivalent diesel is around nothing.

It does depend on how you use the boat though.

Ours is on the Norfolk Broads where probably 60% of our boating is done on one engine at 6 mph when we use no more than we would on diesels and can potter around all day extremely quietly with no smoke and no vibration without even giving a thought to bore glazing. Fuel consumption like this is 5-6 litres an hour.

At sea we get over 1.5 MPG at a cruise of between 20 and 22 knots, yes we would probably push 2 mpg in the same boat with diesels but for what we do that amounts to probably £300 per year. hardly a killer in the overall cost of the annual boat costs and she cost us about 10k less to buy than the same boat with oil burners.

Availability is something to consider but we have done 350 mile voyages without having a problem getting fuel and that is starting from Great Yarmouth.
Plus there seem to be more and more people who go on about availability who are transporting their diesel to the boat in Jerry cans so what is the difference?

If you are running a boat on the Broads, Non tidal Thames or any other river system where you will use the boat for no more than 30 - 50 hours a year at sea then petrol is at least as good as diesel, if not better.

Then there is the big one. We are about to change to a diesel boat purely due to size and I have to admit I am having sleepless nights already. My current boat is 18 years old, although the engines have never missed a beat, the risers and manifolds are as good as new (has always been on a freshwater berth s always flushed) with no difference between the fresh and raw water cooled engine (why did Sealine do that?). Sooner or later an engine is going to need replacing. Fact of life engines are mechanical and do break eventually, diesel or petrol. When this does happen a new engine can be dropped into my current boat for about £3000 in the one we are looking to buy it is going to be more in the region of £20k. A figure that is enough for us to have to change the engine and then put the boat straight up for sale to pay for it.

Petrol boats make a great deal of sense IF you use the boat in a way that suits it and are boating on a budget with older boats.

 

[AndieMac]

Another consideration when deciding service/maintainance costs is replacement manifold costs with petrol engines

Time will tell no doubt, but hopefully the new dry joint Merc. arrangement will lessen the pain.

 

[CX54WEK]

I could well understand why they would; unless boats have separate tanks for heating and propulsion use, Without that, there is a possibility for boaters to abuse the system; not that leisure boaters with diesel engines would (of course they would and do !!)

Maybe leisure boaters with diesel eigined boats should pay full tax paid diesel for the propulsion fuel, to be honest commercial users like fishermen should as well ( as do truckers) Then, have to take on board central heating oil for heating in jerry cans; as a boater using petrol and paying service station petrol prices, it seems fair to me !

Graham

I take it charging batteries and heating water dont count as domestic use in your eyes?

 

[CX54WEK]

OK done this lots of times before and think the justifying of the purchase is much more weighted to the diesel than the petrol owner.

Having run two twin petrol boats over the last 5 years I can put my hand on my heart and say the difference in running cost over the year between our current twin V6 34' petrol flybridge and the equivalent diesel is around nothing.

It does depend on how you use the boat though.

Ours is on the Norfolk Broads where probably 60% of our boating is done on one engine at 6 mph when we use no more than we would on diesels and can potter around all day extremely quietly with no smoke and no vibration without even giving a thought to bore glazing. Fuel consumption like this is 5-6 litres an hour.

At sea we get over 1.5 MPG at a cruise of between 20 and 22 knots, yes we would probably push 2 mpg in the same boat with diesels but for what we do that amounts to probably £300 per year. hardly a killer in the overall cost of the annual boat costs and she cost us about 10k less to buy than the same boat with oil burners.

Availability is something to consider but we have done 350 mile voyages without having a problem getting fuel and that is starting from Great Yarmouth.
Plus there seem to be more and more people who go on about availability who are transporting their diesel to the boat in Jerry cans so what is the difference?

If you are running a boat on the Broads, Non tidal Thames or any other river system where you will use the boat for no more than 30 - 50 hours a year at sea then petrol is at least as good as diesel, if not better.

Then there is the big one. We are about to change to a diesel boat purely due to size and I have to admit I am having sleepless nights already. My current boat is 18 years old, although the engines have never missed a beat, the risers and manifolds are as good as new (has always been on a freshwater berth s always flushed) with no difference between the fresh and raw water cooled engine (why did Sealine do that?). Sooner or later an engine is going to need replacing. Fact of life engines are mechanical and do break eventually, diesel or petrol. When this does happen a new engine can be dropped into my current boat for about £3000 in the one we are looking to buy it is going to be more in the region of £20k. A figure that is enough for us to have to change the engine and then put the boat straight up for sale to pay for it.

Petrol boats make a great deal of sense IF you use the boat in a way that suits it and are boating on a budget with older boats.

Diesel owners dont need to justify their purchase, they bought the right boat in the first place. If petrol boats are so great why do you intend to buy diesel this time around? Its the same old story seen time and again, petrol boater moves to diesel. Funny how it very rarely happens the other way around.

Maintain your diesel engine and it will outlive you. We have successfully completed 650 hours with our current engine and it has never skipped a beat, always fires first crack and doesnt smoke. Yes it may be noisier than a petrol engine at tickover, but that is a small price to pay for reliability, economy and practicality.

PS: You dont need to pay £20k for a replacement engine, thats a bit of a myth

 

[lovezoo]

Diesel owners dont need to justify their purchase,

For somebody who doesn't need to justify his purchase, you do seem to be going to an awful lot of effort on this thread doing just that.

 

[CX54WEK]

For somebody who doesn't need to justify his purchase, you do seem to be going to an awful lot of effort on this thread doing just that.

His is a hers thank you.

We dont need to justify anything, we bought the right boat the first time around which has saved us a lot of time and effort trying to sell on inappropriate boats. This time we have spent enjoying our boat. No justification needed. Buy the right boat and it will pay for itself in saved time and effort.

 

[lovezoo]

Apologies; for somebody who doesn't need to justify her purchase, you do seem to be going to an awful lot of effort on this thread doing just that.

 

[GrahamHR]

I take it charging batteries and heating water dont count as domestic use in your eyes?

In a device used as a means of transport, no they don't. In a house, office, factory etc or even in a liveaboard that never moves, I have no problem with the concept of them using central heating oil/ red diesel. Cars, trucks, buses etc on the other hand also charge their batteries and operate heating systems, but that's electricity and heat that comes from burning fully taxed fuel; why should boats be considered any different?

 

[Andrew_Fanner]

In a device used as a means of transport, no they don't. In a house, office, factory etc or even in a liveaboard that never moves, I have no problem with the concept of them using central heating oil/ red diesel. Cars, trucks, buses etc on the other hand also charge their batteries and operate heating systems, but that's electricity and heat that comes from burning fully taxed fuel; why should boats be considered any different?

You are asking the wrong question.

Taxation should have to justify itself on a case by case basis, not exemptions from taxation. Part of that justification should be amount collected vs costs of collection. HMRC did not want the change in marine fuel duty as it is relatively uneconomic to collect and, due to the number of small companies in the supply chain, compliance is an unwelcome burden on those small companies.

As an aside, when faced with "green" types blethering about "we should not burn fossil fuels so tax them very highly" I suggest they should be utterly untaxed, this would cause them to be used up faster and be of great economic benefit in the process, this giving us the cash to find alternatives that are as convenient