Deposit

[steveeasy]

The OP believes he has a contract. a Verbal one. He paid a deposit. he hopefully can prove he paid this. If it was not written then there would be no reasonable reason to believe it was a none returnable deposit. the seller refused to complete the sale, therefore he is in breach of the verbal contract. All the OP needs to show is some evidence to back up the simple verbal agreement and he would be successful in a small claims court. There is no rational reason a seller can keep a buyers deposit unless he can prove it was none returnable deposit and that the buyer withdrew or would not complete the sale, which he may have had good reason not too.

Dont tend to chase debts, If people dont pay it causes more stress chasing it. I once heard of an owner having their horse kidnapped from their home and was kept under a lien until they paid an outstanding debt. the thieves had taken legal advice. Morally outrageous just to get some money. Could not understand why those doing it were not arrested for theft.

Suggest the OP looks at his evidence and if he can back his claims up with it, just file a claim for breach of a verbal contract.

Steveeasy

 

[Irish Rover]

I was a bit harsh on the OP in an earlier post but, as time passes, I'm developing a sneaking admiration. He posted a wishy washy account of what happened and despite numerous further posts we're still none the wiser. I thought it was just laziness and carelessness, but I'm now thinking it was a cunning strategy to get YBW's finest brains going at it, hammer and tongs. Maybe he's on commission from our friends in FAT for generating clicks.

 

[oldgit]

I’ve got the follow up book for sale if you’re interested? It’s on how to be less gullible? Good read!

Was it published by the Nigeran Royal Press ?

 

[petem]

First thing I'd do it establish if the seller is real and traceable.

Do you have their name and address?

Until you've done that there's no point in planning next steps.

 

[ari]

This sounds like a pretty normal (unfortunately) scam.

Put a boat up for sale for 1/2 normal price because 'going abroad, ultra quick sale needed' or similar.

Tell all interested buyers that ring up that there is lots of interest so they'll have to be super quick, but if they send £500 the boat will be held for them.

Bank as many £500 deposits as possible, ditch the burner phone and move on.

There never is a real boat, just photos of other people's boats pinched from the Internet.

 

[DavidJ]

This sounds like a pretty normal (unfortunately) scam.

Put a boat up for sale for 1/2 normal price because 'going abroad, ultra quick sale needed' or similar.

Tell all interested buyers that ring up that there is lots of interest so they'll have to be super quick, but if they send £500 the boat will be held for them.

Bank as many £500 deposits as possible, ditch the burner phone and move on.

There never is a real boat, just photos of other people's boats pinched from the Internet.

I can never understand how someone can set up a bank account, collect money, transfer it on and close the account without any trace of name and address (for the victim to obtain anyway)
Doesn’t this flag up something suspicious with the bank? My bank yesterday stopped me from ordering £500 worth of foreign currency online.

 

[lustyd]

Until you've done that there's no point in planning next steps.

Why not? The bank would start a dispute process regardless of what's going on with the boat/scam/etc. Simply tell them you don't think the money went to the correct recipient.

 

[lustyd]

I can never understand how someone can set up a bank account, collect money, transfer it on and close the account without any trace of name and address (for the victim to obtain anyway)
Doesn’t this flag up something suspicious with the bank? My bank yesterday stopped me from ordering £500 worth of foreign currency online.

Until OP actually contacts the bank, why would they know? Accounts are certainly tracked closely these days, one of the reasons tradespeople are obliged to use electronic payements rather than cash - it helps with tax collection.

 

[ari]

Why not? The bank would start a dispute process regardless of what's going on with the boat/scam/etc. Simply tell them you don't think the money went to the correct recipient.

I'm happy to be corrected, but I think you are confusing bank transfers with credit card payments. Credit card payments have all sorts of protection for the CC holder as the CC company becomes jointly liable with the vendor.

That's not how bank transfers work. Unless the bank themselves made a mistake then their job starts and ends with putting the money you've requested into the bank account you've nominated.

 

[Davy_S]

I was under the impression that mules are used to set up accounts, they are paid to do this, then the money is swapped around various accounts and becomes untraceable, this is why the majority of scams work, especially holiday booking scams, using a credit card is far safer.

 

[ari]

I can never understand how someone can set up a bank account, collect money, transfer it on and close the account without any trace of name and address (for the victim to obtain anyway)
Doesn’t this flag up something suspicious with the bank? My bank yesterday stopped me from ordering £500 worth of foreign currency online.

Me neither, but I suspect 10 minutes on Google would enlighten you. It clearly can be done because it is.

I recall a few years ago searching boatsandoutboards and reporting fake after fake (I can't remember what it was that flagged them up to me as fake, I think probably the price. The scam adverts were ludicrously cheap, a normally £100K boat for £25K, that sort of thing). I do remember that the fake ones always had laughable descriptions (a Fairline Corniche with a road trailer for instance) and always only one photo (as boatsandoutboards at the time ran ads with only one photo for free, so scammers could put up as many as they liked, there was no cost to them).

 

[Fr J Hackett]

If the police and banks were prepared to do a little work then it would be very easy to follow a money trail and ultimately the scroat behind it all as he would have to have an account to access the money. It might fall down if the money was ultimately transferred off shore but at the least some accounts and people that had set them up could be closed and prosecuted and stopped from ever having a bank account or any credit status in the future.

 

[Irish Rover]

I was under the impression that mules are used to set up accounts, they are paid to do this, then the money is swapped around various accounts and becomes untraceable, this is why the majority of scams work, especially holiday booking scams, using a credit card is far safer.

If the receiving account was in fact set up by a mule then this whole affair could well be described as The Story of Two Mules.

 

[Davy_S]

Speaking of Mules.

 

[lustyd]

I'm happy to be corrected, but I think you are confusing bank transfers with credit card payments. Credit card payments have all sorts of protection for the CC holder as the CC company becomes jointly liable with the vendor.

That's not how bank transfers work. Unless the bank themselves made a mistake then their job starts and ends with putting the money you've requested into the bank account you've nominated.

Bank transfers have a very robust dispute system. It's different to credit cards where refunds are paid regardless in many instances. If a transfer doesn't end up where you wanted then you can and should raise it with the bank. In this instance a sensible way forwards would be to assume that the payment didn't get to the vendor and request the transfer be reversed.
The bank will then contact the recipient and advise them. At that point they either acknowledge receipt as a deposit or they agree to send the money back and either way the issue gets resolved.

 

[ari]

Bank transfers have a very robust dispute system. It's different to credit cards where refunds are paid regardless in many instances. If a transfer doesn't end up where you wanted then you can and should raise it with the bank. In this instance a sensible way forwards would be to assume that the payment didn't get to the vendor and request the transfer be reversed.
The bank will then contact the recipient and advise them. At that point they either acknowledge receipt as a deposit or they agree to send the money back and either way the issue gets resolved.

Sounds great in theory, but surely you would need the vendor to confirm that he never received funds? That might be tricky as it's extremely likely that the 'vendor' doesn't exist, only a scammer.

And even if you could (which seems unlikely, otherwise anyone buying anything that they were unhappy with could reverse the funds and simply refund themselves) I'm not sure said scammer will sit there with the money in the account waiting for someone to try and reclaim it.

 

[lustyd]

Sounds great in theory, but surely you would need the vendor to confirm that he never received funds? That might be tricky as it's extremely likely that the 'vendor' doesn't exist, only a scammer.

And even if you could (which seems unlikely, otherwise anyone buying anything that they were unhappy with could reverse the funds and simply refund themselves) I'm not sure said scammer will sit there with the money in the account waiting for someone to try and reclaim it.

At which point it becomes fraud, and a criminal matter which the police CAN get involved in. Entirely my point.

People accidentally pay the wrong person all the time. Banks reverse those payments all the time too. It's not requesing a refund, it's correcting a banking error (wrong recipient). If the recipient removes funds that's on them, they will end up in overdraft when the payment is returned and should have known better than to withdraw money that's not theirs - this is the same as finding £500 on the street, it's illegal to keep it.

 

[Portofino]

Where is the sight of a reg doc in this saga? Or any other eq paperwork, lift outs , annual maintenance , marina berth contracts , engine spare s oil evidence , anode invoices or even technicians invoices ?

To collaborate in the absence of a personal viewing ( with owner or agent ) of the boat existence .

I would want to see all this before going further .

Though really with this kind of purchase sending £ unseen is risky .Too risky for me .

 

[Irish Rover]

Meantime, back in the real world, the OP doesn't even bother to log in here to see if someone found the secret to recovering his "monkey" while the wardroom JAG's continue in full Tidal flow.

 

[ari]

At which point it becomes fraud, and a criminal matter which the police CAN get involved in. Entirely my point.

People accidentally pay the wrong person all the time. Banks reverse those payments all the time too. It's not requesing a refund, it's correcting a banking error (wrong recipient). If the recipient removes funds that's on them, they will end up in overdraft when the payment is returned and should have known better than to withdraw money that's not theirs - this is the same as finding £500 on the street, it's illegal to keep it.

I fear the word 'CAN' is doing some heavy lifting, and I'm still not completely convinced that banks will cheerfully reverse a payment on one person's say so (which would be effectively giving the public carte blanche to decide they want a refund) or that scammers are that bothered about overdrafts.

But in theory, that all sounds great.