Democracy on board

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give me an example of a sailing emergency where your approach has worked.

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Once das-boots committee has turned a glitch into a full-blown emergency, there will be the inevitable debate about who's mobile phone to use to call for help!

Sorry, was that a different thread?
 
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In fact if you stop thinking in terms of wielding power and think instead about taking responsibility you will have understood. The "buck" has to stop somewhere and maritime law recognises this and so should you.

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I think boatmike has hit the nail on the head - the problem here seems to me that das_boot dislikes someone weilding power in an obsessive way, and is exploring ways of avoiding this when bringing crew on board his own boat. If you think of it as "taking responsibility" rather than "weilding power", sit back and let concensous develop where it will and dont bark orders etc. you will find the crew will respect you for it and you wont have 'imposed your views' on them except in an emergency except in an emergency, or where concencous does not develop naturally . In that situation, by all means listen, and explain that you respect peoples view but you have to make a decision, and this is what it is...
 
It won't ever work for more than two..

Don't think I've ever been steered toward and emergency, I fear however you will end up in one with your current thinking.

Now what were those vultures called?


Ian
 
i thinl Shipswoofy put his case very well. At the very least, there does have to be someone taking ultimate responsibility. It could be you, or your wife; or the designated 'watch leader'.
You have obviously come across some horrid dictators in your time and have thought'I wouldn't do it like that'- I sympathise, but I think people here have suggested viable alternatives that still involve the legal responsibility for others lives.
 
Ultimately I am responsible it is my boat. What I am trying to do is sail in a responsible manner not by dictat.
I can think of countless dictators who have hit the rocks because they refused to listen.
They were allways right.
I would hate to exclude any point of view that might save my life. In an emergency I would like to hear as many oppinions as are available If mine is wrong I would hope that someone will tell me so. I would hope they are empowered to feel that they can disagree with me.

Beeing a control freek does not make you a safe person to sail with quite the contrary.
 
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das_boot: I am trying to do convert the harmoney from 2 to 5 if it works with two why not 5.

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Iangrant: It won't ever work for more than two..

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having harmony on the boat is possible with 5 just as it is with 2. It's just that this doesnt mean not having a skipper on board. In fact, if you think over the replies you may decide that in fact having an effective skipper on board will actually contribute to harmony among crew much more so than if the crew are left to their own devices. As said in previous posts, this becomes more and more so as you move further and further away from the model of an experienced sailing couple.
 
Yes, No and Maybe, but not necessarily in that order /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 
Great thread. I would feel happy sailing with you now you've said 'ultimately it is my responsibility it is my boat'- up till then I'd have been uneasy. Off home to facilitate a family meeting on what to have for tea-but I'm the Mum so what I say goes.
 
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Thank you
This is just what I am trying to do convert the harmoney from 2 to 5 if it works with two why not 5.

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But you quoted what I was saying selectively. I carried on... "But this is unusual and I can't imagine it working with more than two, and definitely not where some of the crew are less inexperienced than others -" etc. etc.

The situation described was especially unusual in that it involved cruising on a Hobie Cat, where there wasn't really space for a skipper on board. I think that the answer is no, certainly if there are more than two of you, then the crew needs a skipper. Even with two, a skipper is nearly always needed.
 
For the sake of clarity

on my boat

If i'm saying we're going, we're going.

BUT, if someone a bit techy or saily or clever comes along and says ah but i have a nowcast at our destination 5 miles away which says it's awful weather, contrary to that CG forecast which was wrong before remeber like when you were out with para in the same place? ....then i wil ask a bit more where he heard this contraery info and v likely reverse the decison, and say "good call" to the crew.

Alternatively if someone not v boaty says ooer look at that cloud, last time it was v windy have you really thought about this? Then I will prolly say look are your coming or wot?

hence, You (or the person in charge) has to weigh the input from others. The weight varies from person to person, and from situation to situation - so someties the numptie is right altho often not, and sometimes the "expert" is wrong as well.
 
"And sharing reponsibility for a task such as navigation is downright dangerous: "I thought you have been doing the navigation for the last hour" - "no, I thought you were" - "did anyone on board check if there were any hazards along the route?" etc."

I once ran aground in a scenario like this one. I was sailing with a friend and then-co-owner of the boat. Usually I always did the navigation and he did the sail handling (he was an old dinghy hand and I had learned to sail on a two-masted schooner so I was a bit more aware of depth and rocks and things like that...).

It happened when I was at the helm. It was dark night and we where approaching a narrow channel. I had seen a channel marker and left it on the port side where it belonged. Suddenly my friend said "You could steer a bit more to port so we would be heading directly for the entrance..." I did that. Two minutes later we ran aground on a perfectly charted rock. I thought he would have checked the chart, but he didn't. I always felt (and still do) that it was my fault altogether, even if we never talked about who was the skipper and we were both the owners!

But I think I learned something that night.
 
What a lot of wesel words being bandied around - diktat, democracy, wielding power - who says leading or decision-making have anything to do with those?

And i haven't noticed mucha about rules yet. Take the rule about driving on the left(or right). Doesn't matter which, but it helsp if people aren't making their own decisions about it. We follow rules - of common sense, made by others, reached through unconscious or conscious consensus (that' how you spell it by the way - all the time.

When the rules run out, or if they aren't clear we have to have decisions. Means of reaching decisions vary. If you use the wrong one in the wrong situation, you have inaction. Das_Boot, your harmonious working with your wife is based IMHO on evolved understandings and assumed allocations of responsiblity established in all sorts of contexts, not just on hte boat. You don't have that with most crew. Anyway, I'll bet there are times when either you or your wife is the final decision-maker in circumstances you have come to understand or agree.

Even in consensus decision-making, there are patterns of leadership and influence (and negativity and obstruction) which have to be resolved, but in the end even consensus arrives at a decision (if it works).

The question is, not what is morally right in some vague general sense, but what works in teh circs. Diktat may work if you can flog the crew, but then youd better damn well be the most powerful, ruthless, quick-witted and most skilled person around, or everyone will come to grief.

Otherwise, leadership means finding the decision processs that works for the situation and the people involved - not telling htem wht to do, or sitting around waiting forThe Answer to emerge, but guiding and consulting when possible, or giving others the confidence to accept decisions form you if they have to be quick..

If theres' time, consult. But if all hell is breaking out, that bulbous bow is bearing down, and paralysis is setting in, someone (i.e. you) has to shout "XXXXXX" and the others have to do it.
 
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