Democracy on board

Well, Iangrant

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Well Das-Boot, again you put forward a question, then proceed to gleefully bat away many respectable responses to reaffirm your original opinion.


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Maybe Das-Boot should tell US how he's going to do it, since he's not interested in our suggestions? A new socio-political solution for boat management, deconstructing previously established hierarchical structures? /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Alistair
 
Absolutly one would need these (assesment of strength weakness) however I am not advocating team mentality quite the opposite I think five capable individuals dont need a captain they need to be left to do what they do best.
It is the captains of industry that push the line that people need to be led it gives them a reason to be. It makes them feel important.
 
Bruce, you are quite right to not want to emulate any skipper with a thickheaded approach - too many skippers seem to turn into dictators barking orders on board (Edit: and you may find some crew members will manage the same feat in the absence of someone truly in charge).

ps. how about putting a question to us in one of those Poll thingys. "Should my boat have a skipper?" Then we can vote, no one individual will 'impose themsleves on others', and we will know what the right answer is !

go on, do it ... oh, and do the same with your crew before you leave :-)
 
Quote:
"It is the captains of industry that push the line that people need to be led it gives them a reason to be. It makes them feel important."

Wrong!

Ian
 
Alistair I have been telling you all along how I would like to do it.

I am inviting opinion because I am not sure. The reason I am not sure is because I have never sailed with a crew on my boat.

Actualy I have:
My wife then a Lithuanian guy that I had to let go. Then my daughter that ended up bossing me, not about running the boat, but about my disheveled looks when we were in port.
This was separately The only time I sailed with more than two was when I had a skipper on board just after I bought the boat he brought a crew member. They jumped ship in Cais Cais near lisbon.
Now that I think about it he cured me.
 
Philosophically speaking...

what you have just described is remarkably close to the Marxist view of society after the revolution. There would be no need for laws because everyone would realise that it is in their best interests to abide by a code of mutually beneficial rules. Stalin, supposedly believing that the utopia had been achieved, went as far as shooting all the lawyers on the basis that if laws were henceforth unnecessary, then who needs lawyers?

While the concept of shooting all the lawyers does have its attractions, he neverthless regretted it a few years later, and had to develop hastily a new generation of them.

Of course, you're not going quite as far as Marx would have liked as you (presumably?) are not offering to hand over ownership of the yacht to the crew? But then nor did Stalin nationalise all property.

A dictatorship of the proletariat is not always the best way to go, even from the point of view of the proletariat.
 
After my original post I shut up to see what everyone else whas going to say, but I have to say your subsequent replies disturb me. I was trying to tell you that you don't have to be autocratic to lead but you DO have to lead. Authority is NOT invented by people who want power for the sake of it. SOMEONE has to take responsibility. In fact if you stop thinking in terms of wielding power and think instead about TAKING RESPONSIBILITY you will have understood. The "buck" has to stop somewhere and maritime law recognises this and so should you. Sorry, but if after everything else that has been said you still don't see this, appoint someone else to do it! But if it was me on your boat I would want it in writing! Oh and by the way, to say there is always lots of time to do anything at sea is total crap. Emergencies can happen and require an instant response not a committee meeting........
 
If we take the scenario of putting a reef in the sail.

5 people on board things are getting a little rough some people want to get to port in a hurry so in their minds they are prepared to ignore the danger. However this self interest might not be shared by all. I dont beleive that it would be difficult to reach a consensus that their self interest is better served by staying alive.

5 people on board things are getting a little rough etc. the only way the reef stays out is if you have a dictator on board.

Comunism did not fail because the system was inherently weak it failed because of dictatorship.

The so called captains of industry would have you believe this know thy oppressor.
 
Come to think of it, I have been sailing on a number of occasions with a friend, where there were just two of us on board, and I don't recall us discussing in advance who would be the skipper. It wasn't really a problem as, on the whole we had a similar perceptions of our objectives, how much effort we were willing to put into it etc., we generally recognised that we had different strengths, and respected that.

But this is unusual and I can't imagine it working with more than two, and definitely not where some of the crew are less inexperienced than others - I think that most novice crew would be frightened to think that there was no one really in charge, no one to take responsibility for their safety etc. And sharing reponsibility for a task such as navigation is downright dangerous: "I thought you have been doing the navigation for the last hour" - "no, I thought you were" - "did anyone on board check if there were any hazards along the route?" etc.

One (lady) crew I had was furious when I always tried to ask politely: "I'm sorry, you wouldn't mind, would you, just giving that rope next to you a tweak, if you're not too busy of course?" "If you want me to pull the ****ing rope, just tell me to pull the ****ing rope, don't ****ing ASK me!" I could see her point.
 
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Das-boot you are born to be a single hander.

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I dont agree, I suspect Das_Boot may well be a pleasant 'boat owner' (not skipper) to sail with (albeit a bit of a stirrer maybe), unlikely to be the type who will bark orders. However, my concern is that a 'nice' non-skipper to sail with is not enough to ensure safety on the boat by efficient decision making, if there is no-one in charge.

I have done most of my sailing on a boat owned by two friends of mine, with generally experienced crew who get on well together. The boat always runs itself without any authoritarian rules being dished out, and everybody mucks in and gets the job done. When the decision needs to be made, the crew naturally offer opinions without being asked and a concensous generally develops without effort. This in my experience is the scenario on most couple crewed boats, and *regular* crews.

When you take on unknown or inexperienced crew it is a different situation; and even on the self-running boats in a crunch, a clear definition of who is in charge is essential IMHO (whether explicit or implied - most crew will defer to the owner as skipper).

dont do it Bruce.
 
Acshully ma bonnie wee bootie, I reckon that if you think you can manage a sailing boat like a hippe commune then the closest you've been to a floating object is one of Nina's 99 red balloons , give me an example of a sailing emergency where your approach has worked.
 
So who decides when to start thinking about putting in a reef - all five people will have different ideas, by the time you've all decided that it's all right to talk about it (if everyone agrees it's OK to talk about it) then you'll all have to agree, then you'll all have to agree who is going to do it. It'll be to late, yer sails are blown out.

How on earth do you decide on anything.. it'd be laughable

It would look like a Monty Python sketch:

"Is this the 10 minute argument of the full half hour?"

or the three vultures on the jungle book "wot der wanna do then, I dunno wot de you wanna do....."



Ian
 
Submissive type then your lady friend....... Would she pull anything for you if you ordered her to? Got her phone no?
 
This thread is full of valid points and as TCM stated about the crews position.

If I was on your boat I would be looking to you for decisions. If you decided on passage I should be navigator, I would navigate, but I would come to you as owner (skipper) with the options and reasons for sailing to x as a waypoint instead of y. I would present it as a passage plan, if there were 3 obvious scenarios regarding weather forecasts, different ports of call or tide restraints I would offer you all the information, maybe with my take on the situation. But ultimately I would expect you to make the call.

The same if I was in charge of setting sails, I would turn to you with suggestions such as I think we should set sail x because the navigator has suggested the wind is going to y and the helm is finding the boat is doing z. But the decision is yours.

There is another scenario here, if I was on the sath coast and went along to one of the forum meets and took along some forumites and there was an obvious skipper who knew how to sail far better than me, (not too difficult) I would put them in charge. The irony being, which makes my points above, lets say it was Jimi or TCM, if he wanted to make a change to the sail plan he would prolly turn to me and explain why, putting the ball back into my court.

It is still democratic, the person who has the knowledge will make a suggestion and back it up with reason, but ultimately everytime, it will come back to the owner, who is always going to be the skipper.

Another example, Mirablella V, full time proffessional skipper. While the owners are onboard I am sure he will consult them prior to a major decision, such as the weather is really turning sour I think we should call in to port x and sit it out. He will give reasons and scenarios and put the decision back to the owner.

Sorry mate, but you have to take command. That does not mean doing it 'your' way, it means listening to the crew and using the data available to make a decision.

I know this is going to sound like a crappy footnote, but I would not sail with you as crew if you really are this wishy washy. It would scare the pants off me.
 
'''''Come to think of it, I have been sailing on a number of occasions with a friend, where there were just two of us on board, and I don't recall us discussing in advance who would be the skipper. It wasn't really a problem as, on the whole we had a similar perceptions of our objectives, how much effort we were willing to put into it etc., we generally recognised that we had different strengths, and respected that.''''

Thank you
This is just what I am trying to do convert the harmoney from 2 to 5 if it works with two why not 5.

As for sailing emergencys my consesus aproach has steared us clear of them so far.

Maybe the dictators amongst us have all of the emergencys, maybe something in their psycological make up stears them towards emergencys It gives them an excuse to show who is boss.
 
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