Democracy on board

[Das_Boot]

My wife and I were going to be the sole crew but after reading the forum and various books we decided to take on crew for the first leg from England to the Med.
Now having put the word out we have 5 crew all told. I am not interested in telling people what to do. I have a problem with authority and dont wish to inflict it on others.
Has anyone experience of sailing without a designated skipper is it possible.

 

[ShipsWoofy]

You can easily be skipper without being a despot. The ole show of hands often works well.

Without an overriding vote there could be bad feeling, especially from your wife and you, it is your boat after all.

Votes cast on options such as which port, who will stand watches, who is responsible for what.

Without a skipper you may argue over every tiny point, nothing is ever achieved with a committee, you might never leave the South Coast.

 

[Das_Boot]

The problem is that once you assume the mantle of responsibility you take away responsibility from the other crew. Then nobody wants to do anything without your say so. It is a dilemma.

 

[Talbot]

You are confusing leadership with dictatorship. They are totally different. A true leader takes into account the views of those with him and persuades people that his chosen choice of action is the correct one. A leader will prevent arguments by ensuring that different viewpoints have been investigated and the correct course of action is taken.
In cases of emergency, a leader is essential in order to be able to react in time to be able to cope with the situation. The crew must understand what decisions need to be refered upwards. - It is common in large ships for the watchleader to have written instructions on what decisions he can make himself, and what must be refered to the skipper.

A committee rarely works properly unless there is a strong leader who influences what is happening

IMHO the worst possible way forward is for you to start as a committee and then lose control of what is happening - you would e better off employing a professional skipper if this approach is acceptable, you would at least retain some semblance of control. If not, it is very possible that you would end up totally disenchanted with cruising and move back onto dry land!

Leadership is similar to raising children, clear instructions, clear limits and consistent application of both is the fundamental principle. Listen to their viewpoint and persuading them why your decision is better will work much better than the Captain Bligh approach (unless you particularly fancy a 2000 mile voyage in an open boat) /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[NickCharman]

Perhaps you should think of being a skipper as more like being a very good communicator, lead technician, and a delegator - a sort of cheerful mother/father figure.

Skippering is not about barking at anyone - it is more about making sure the right plans and decisions have been made, and that people (crew) are enjoying doing their bit. Helping if not.

It is not a democracy tho - when a decision needs to be made it is down to the skipper to make it - but crew consensus and understanding is vital. Very similar to a good consensual team leader in a work context.

Some decisions are crew led - things like: where are we going, are we up to a bit of bouncy weather, - the things that affect everyone's pleasure. The things that need decisions more firmly made are things like: reef or not? Time to fuel up? Time to leave, course to steer, watch routine/tasks, safety decisions.

In this role, being a skipper is not as daunting a role as the picture you imply you have of the job, would be. How terrifying it would be to have to be right and fierce all the time!

 

[Das_Boot]

The problem is I am no leader. I have never been able to tell people what to do. Far from being Bligh I am actualy the opposite. I realy cant be arsed telling people what to do. That is why I am asking if it is possible to do it another way.

 

[Das_Boot]

Tnks for reply's after giving it some thought I realise that everyone has to manage with what is comfortable. It is something I cant be lazy about and rely on the experience of others.
I will actualy have to work it out for myself.

 

[Superstrath]

If you really mean this....

[ QUOTE ]
The problem is I am no leader. I have never been able to tell people what to do. Far from being Bligh I am actualy the opposite. I realy cant be arsed telling people what to do. That is why I am asking if it is possible to do it another way.

[/ QUOTE ]
Then you should consider giving the responsibility to one of the "crew". Officially. As pointed out above, there is no need for the skipper to be a despot, but there is a clear and unavoidable need for one individual to take on the responsibilities, obligations and, I suppose, perks of being "in command".
I don't believe that there is another way. You might get to the Med without the skipper having to make any decisions without general concensus. On the other hand, you might not. In that case, someone must help the decision-making process with a .........decision. If you've ever been in an environment, on land or sea, where a small group of people are stuck together in testing and confined circumstances, you will be fully aware that there must be a heirarchy clearly marked out. You can duck out if you want, but you must allow someone else to do it. Your position, as owner, would then be to say, " I would like to be in Gibraltar on the 3rd of June," or whatever.
On the other hand, I suspect your reluctance to assume command is balanced by a reluctance to accept commands.....

Alistair

 

[Das_Boot]

Re: If you really mean this....

It is based on my dislike for heirarchical constructs. And my belief that they are ultimately regressive. I believe that people have their own best interests at heart. If one can achieve a system where everyone realises that getting somewhere safely serves their own best interests you will have a more responsible crew. Of course this requires that the crew be competent. IF not I would not like to confuse teaching with orders.

 

[snowleopard]

Re: If you really mean this....

90% of the time a competent crew on a routine voyage need no skipper. it's when the wheels come off that you need someone to take decisions. the problem is that if the crew haven't accepted that you are ultimately in charge they may not follow your decisions when you need them to.

 

[mirabriani]

You might give some thought to electing a first mate, who would run the boat but still be under your control.
If the boat is run by a democracy, it will be inefficient at best, There are times when an immediate order is necessary.
Being a good skipper is a skill. Like all skills, they take some learning. As others have said the crew needs to be happy. However things need to be done and although there is not always a correct way,a quick decision may be needed.
Just a little example, I was Skipper, my boat, tight berth, cross wind
my engine has no reverse. I asked Yachtmaster crew make ready to tie up as we came into berth. He stood on foredeck, jumped over pulpit far too late to stop her and we hit the pontoon. As Skipper it was my fault. I now ask crew to position themselves midship ready to hop off as soon as possible, giving maybe 20 feet to slow her down.
When crewing on another boat I try to learn from others, preferably when they are right, but by analysis when it goes wrong.

Hope this helps you
Regards Briani

 

[boatmike]

I actually admire your honesty. If more people recognised that leadership and technical competence are not the same thing perhaps we would not see so many poor leaders. It's not necessary to be autocratic. You can be democratic and still lead.
Suggest you really ask yourself "am I a good navigator/seaman when on my own?"
"Do I make sound decisions regarding the handling of the vessel?"
If the answer to these questions in all confidence in "Yes" than you are competent but not a good leader. Nothing wrong with that and good to recognise it from the outset.
Assuming this to be the case you could explain to your crew that you expect all major decisions regarding navigation, pilotage, and boat handling (like when to reef or not) to be referred to you but you expect everyone to "muck in" and share the work of running the boat without barking orders all the time.
If (and here's the rub) you have good and competent crew they should be able to settle into a pattern of natural teamwork. If you have a bunch of lazy bastards or someone who enjoys slinging their weight about you could be in trouble!
My dear late wife was superb at the "soft skills" of handling people. We sailed in company with several other couples in the Caribbean one year and I had no problem sleeping when she was "in charge" as when she wanted something doing she would ask sweetly " I am very sorry to disturb you all but could I please have a volunteer to help get the spinnaker down cos I dont think I can do it on my own"...... She was never short of volunteers. Leadership is very much a matter of setting an example. People will follow if they respect you. Often the skipper who barks orders is NOT competent and is covering his own failings with a display of bad manners.
Beware committies though. Remember it was a committee charged with the task of designing a horse that ended up with the camel...... Keep control but keep quiet until you need to speak was always my Fathers advice and it has never failed me. If you make this work you may be surprised that at the end of the trip the general opinion is that you are actually good fun to sail with and you will have their respect for controlling the boat without barking......

 

[Das_Boot]

I take your points. When my wife and I sail we could do it if we were deaf and dumb we just get on with what we have to do. It would be hard to tell if the tail was wagging the dog or vise versa.
I suppose it is expecting too much to achieve that sort of common cause on a short trip.
The guy who is lazy arround the cabin might turn out to be the one who does not mind diving to free the propellor or climbing the mast in a gale but if made to feel bad by constant nagging might not be willing when the time comes.

 

[phanakapan]

Mr partner and I take turns to be skipper. In reality, most decisions are joint ones, and we both feel free to say ' OK- but have you thought about X Y Z ?'
BUT the one time we didn't designate a skipper we ran aground going the wrong side of a mark because we both thought the other person had checked it out.

I have never sailed with a crew so I'm in no position to comment really- but I imagine I would try to use the strengths of each person- eg if someone is a crack navigator you delegate that to them- but ultimately when lives are very possibly at stake someone has to take responsibility. Maybe your wife?!

 

[CharlesM]

Hey Das_Boot

Personally I think not having a clear cut leader on a boat can be very difficult and possibly even dangerous. The time will come where a decision must be taken whether to turn to port or starboard and dilly-dallying will be dangerous. At that point if everyone is pointing in different directions then which way will the boat go? If it is accepted that there is a captain and his/her decision will be followed.

You dont need to give orders all the time. I prefer to inform how something is done, and then let the person try, and even make mistakes until it becomes dangerous or there is no improvement when I will point out the correct manner.

Anyway, being owner you will already have a 'leader' position in the eyes of your crew.

Cheers
Charles
======
6 sleeps /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Das_Boot]

Whomever is on the helm should take the decision on where to stear. Shouting and carrying on just makes matters worse. If you believe in the competence of the person on the helm leave them alone.
Relinquishing control is quite a liberating experience and you would be suprised how competent people can be when they have to think for themselves.

 

[aidancoughlan]

"...the problem is that if the crew haven't accepted that you are ultimately in charge they may not follow your decisions when you need them to. "

There was a short article in one of the magazines a while back about a court case where a boat crossing biscay with owner/skipper and 2 'friends' - the crew didnt respect the skippers decision in worsening weather, wanted to get off so tied the skipper up and and called for a rescue chopper ! If I recall correctly, the subsequent court case ruled in the skippers favour - his decision was considered to be 'law' at sea. The point was made that a rebellion at sea could endanger the lives of all crew - inexperienced crew wishing to head for shallow water in storm conditions for example.

I reckon it's important for the crew to know who the skipper is (more so with inexperienced crew or crew who havnt sailed together before)- if this is not made obvious either explicitly or implicitly there will be problems when contentious or difficult decisions need to be made. As others have said, this doesnt necessarily mean taking an authoritarian style - if you have competent crew that know each other then sit back by all means and let the boat run itself within the boundaries you are comfortable with, but be prepared to step in when circumstances require it. If you have inexperienced crew or crew that dont know each other, I reckon a small boat without a skipper for any length of time is a bad place to be.

I'd suggest..
(a) If your reluctance is simply because you are not happy 'telling people what to do', then adopt a style based on concensous
(b) if its a people skills/communication issue, elect one of the crew that you trust to 'manage' the crew for you, or a professional skipper while still being under your control.
(c) if its a lack of confidence in your own skills, competence or decision making ability in managing the boat (in contenxt of the intended passage) which may be highlighted with other crew on board, then a professional skipper would make sense.

 

[Peppermint]

Re: It\'s a can of worms

You can take a paternal view of leadership. No reason not to take note of peoples feelings or opinions, particularly in the planning stage and between passages. To go fully communist does have a couple of drawbacks though.

Firstly you are going to find that you are responsible regardless of any sort of joint and several idea you put in place. The maritime legal framework doesn't like the idea of leaderless crews roaming the globe.

Secondly it's common to be asked by officialdom, "who's the skipper?" Well if you've got all the time in the world you can explain your system. Quicker to go with the flow though.

Thirdly there are times, I hope you never meet them, when people need to look to someone in authority. It's generally when somethings gone TU and straight forward action is required. When people are cold, wet, frightened or hurting they need confidence in the leader. If you've let them develop their own pecking order you might find it hard to get them back onside.

Just because you have a problem with authority doesn't mean everyone else does. Most sailors quite like to know where they stand. Maybe your not inflicting anything on them. Maybe your blessing them with structure. Lead them don't boss them, teach them don't tell them, listen and then do the right thing. You'lllearn a lot about your friends and even more about yourself.

 

[Das_Boot]

Why would a lack of belief in myself lead to me not wanting to impose myself on others. It is precicely that confidence in myself that allows me to have confidence in others.
The cheating husband allways believes his wife is cheating him.

The first point is the one I am trying to follow ''consesus'' this means no heirarchy. Everyone thinking for themselves.

If my wife and I can achieve this why not with a crew.

There is no law out on the ocean maybe he deserved tying up.

 

[Benbow]

Having skippered and been skippered with lots of very different characters, here is my recipe for success.

Discuss everything of importance when the oportunity arises, listen to and respect every opinion, make sure you know what everyone expects to get out of the voyage and work your socks off to help them to achieve that (and that may well include them acting as skipper for a day or more). Recognise that you can learn something from everyone.

But ultimately there must be a clearly identifiable skipper who makes the decisions with the aim of achieving maximum safety and maximum fun for all on board. So never, ever, take a vote on anything unless you are tied to the shore.