Democracy on board

A very firm fact of life is that a group of people needs leadership.
Ask yourself which one of your crew has earned your respect, then maybe consider that person is designated captain, while you relax as the owner, removed from responsibility and allowing that person to quietly get on with the job.

I've recently sailed with a skipper that said very little, normally the best are like that, not barking out orders, not needing to.

It has already been said when it all goes wrong someone must make and standby that decision.

It is not possible to set aside the mandatory sections of maritime law.

Should, God, Neptune, Thor, forbid, something does wrong, at the inquest, your arguments for "well we couldn't really decide whom was the captain 'cause I as the owner have a problem with authority" will not stand up in court!

A camel was a horse designed by committee, you need a skipper.

Ian
 
Hi Bruce,
A lack of belief in your skills whether justified or not could very well lead to you not being comfortable in being 'skipper' - I didn't imply this to mean 'imposing yourself on others', as most of the time this is not what being a skipper is about, (btw I wasnt implying that this was true in your case).

If you are comfortable with the skills required for the passage which you appear to be, then follow the consensous approach (how the hell do you spell that?)... this is the approach that IMO works best on a boat with experienced crew that sail together regularly and can get on with each other easily.

if the crew havnt sailed together regularly, or are inexperienced, or simply dont get on with each other, then the concensous style of leadership may still work, but will work better as long as there is a leader applying it. You seem to think that concensous involves a free-for-all - you will get away with this with the right crew (eg. you and your wife), but it could be a disaster with the wrong crew (those towards the later end of my list). A good leader can still manage a badly matched crew by taking on board their views, and then * making a decision *.

ps. As there was little info in the article I referred to , I acknowledge the possibility that the guy deserved tying up (its hard to imagine the circumstances where the crew would do this) - but this was not the point. The court recognised his authority for the very reason that we are discussing - a boat at sea needs somebody in charge (whatever the style of leadership applied), not somebodie(s).

Pappermint is right "Lead them don't boss them, teach them don't tell them, listen and then do the right thing"

Dont get hung up on the title 'Skipper', either you or your wife is the natural skipper on board - you may handle 90% of situations via joint decisions, but most times in a *real* crunch one of you will step to the fore, and the other will respect it even if they dont agree - thats the skipper, and both of you know it deep down. With a bunch of crew you dont know, who dont know you it may be too late to announce that you've decided to be skipper when the *real* crunch comes...
 
Having a clearly defined skipper assumes that you will allways be right. It therefore shows disrespect to others if at the outset you are allready invalidating them by imposing an heirarchical construct on them.

Maximum safety comes when common cause and self interest are aligned. Maximum fun might only include yourself.
 
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Whomever is on the helm should take the decision on where to stear. If you believe in the competence of the person on the helm leave them alone.


[/ QUOTE ]
There's more to managing a boat and a crew in difficult conditions than steering, I think you know that. In fact, the helmsman is often the last person in a position to assess a situation fully. You can also steer well, yet know nothing at all about navigation, ROTR etc. Why waste a good navigator or tactician on the wheel?
You're getting a lot of good and consistent advice here about management and leadership. Get the ideas about barking commands out of your head. If all's going well, you hardly need to speak. I also think you need to forget your niaive concerns about "hierarchical constructs". That sounds like a dropped line from Michael Palin in Monty Python And The Holy Grail!
Seriously, I think your attitude could make you a good skipper if you take on the advice you've been given. There is no need to disregard others, nor is there an assumption that you will always be right.
You might even find that the crew insist on a skipper, and that it be you.

Alistair
 
Hi das_boot,

Do you and your wife ever discuss decisions? Because if you do, those are the situations where your common sense isn't enough to reach an obvious conclusion. And these are situations where a consensual crew will all have an opinion to put forward, and where you'll find lots of time being wasted in committee.

My view is that as crew or skipper, I'd rather know my place. I want personal control over my responsibilities. I don't want joint control over all areas. That wastes my time worrying about everything, and makes me frustrated when my ideas or opinions don't hold sway. It's fine with two people as you get your own way around 50% of the time. However, with seven "equals" on board, some are just going to get frustrated as they are repeatedly ignored.

I know where you're coming from; my wife and I are also very relaxed about who's in charge when we sail. But if I was crewing on someone else's boat, I would not want to be partially responsible for it, without having complete control over my areas of responsibility.

I think the same is true in many areas; people are happier if they know their boundaries. It's frustrating if the job is bigger than you can handle, or if you are not able to get on with a job that you feel you can do because someone else keeps sticking their oar in.
 
What's the first thing that happens in every democracy - elect a leader !
Accepting that you are the Skipper doesnt mean assuming that you will always be right, it means assuming that you will show respect to your crew members, listen to their opinions and be of service to them by making decisions based on their input and your own judgement.

You have 5 crew including yourself, conditions deteriorate rapidly, man overboard, one crew wants to get in the liferaft and is untying it right now, one wants to abandon the MOB as lost and head for dangerously shallow water to make landfall (and as luck would have it happens to be the one steering) one is sick in his bunk and refuses to help work the boat, you are capable of handling the conditions but need help in trying to reef sail and bring the boat under control to recover the MOB...
.... how did you get there? boat was over canvassed (previous group vote 3/2 in favour of keeping sails up), left port in rising wind with gale forecast against your own better judgement (vote 4/1 as all crew start work on monday)....
what happens next? MOB lost, boat lost on rocks as Helmsman makes for port while you are attempting to get a group concensous (how the hell do you spell that ?), crewmember in bunk lost with boat, you and helmsman in the drink.... good result?

Of course, wrong decisions are made by skippers too - every time you set foot on a boat you place your trust in the skipper, preferrably with good reason - but dont be willing to place your trust in a random selection of crew.

ps. Bruce, I believe you will have had the sense to become skipper long before the scenario above developed !
 
'If my wife and I can acheive this then why not with a crew'

Presumably you've had a considerable amount of time to get to know yourself and your wife well. You will not have that luxury with your crew.
 
One thing about sailing is you have plenty of time.

An heirarchical construct is just that. An Heirarchy that has been constructed. It did not exist until it was constructed like in the army a heirarchy was constructed because it does not come naturally to humans.

I believe the German army during the war had better fighting units because they had a less rigid heirarchy this forced the men to think for themselves.

I dont want to get into a discussion on the war just using it to illustrate a point.
 
I would have thought that hierarchy does come naturally to humans, as with other primates and many of our colleagues in the animal kingdom? Trouble is it takes time, and often a bit of push and shove to develop naturally; meantime you've got a boat to sail and enjoy. Get it sorted first.
but agree with your point, it's better if its flexible.

ps. good thread.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Having a clearly defined skipper assumes that you will allways be right. It therefore shows disrespect to others if at the outset you are allready invalidating them by imposing an heirarchical construct on them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree. When I'm skipper I am responsible for the boat and everyone aboard. That's very different from always being right. In fact, like most of us, I do make mistakes - probably more than I realise! That's fine so long as I can take responsiblity for them and, when they're noticed, take action to correct them.

Taking charge does not mean "invalidating" others. I can discuss overall plans with others, I can explain how I would like things done, I can listen to - and often gratefully accept - suggestions, I can delegate tasks and leave others to get on with them. The others on board are - and, I hope, feel - valued. They, in turn, appear to respect this and accept my leadership. This need not equate to following orders: it's often more a matter of their responding to quiet suggestions or requests.

The worst problems seem to arise when there's no-one clearly in charge. Then the situation can quickly deteriorate: order, counter-order, chaos.

On a lighter note, there are two basic rules on my boat: rule 1 - the skipper's always right; rule 2 - when the skipper's wrong, rule 1 applies.
 
skipper/owners

Um, i think it probably is possible if it's your boat. This is quite different imho from the situation where none of the people on the boat/ship physically "own" the boat and external factors affecdt the crew/skipper relationship. So, i have few problems whilst underway with a bunch of people all of whom have their own boat, and sometimes if they all say "yes yes lets go to xxx" then we'll do that or if some of them said "yes yes i'm a bit tired lets stop here for a while" i'd quite possibly do that too. No point in pressing alongh unless i know summink different like the boat sinking, The idea of having a captain with an enforced regime doesn't really apply, and often wdn't be sensible - unless that person knows summink special like the boat draft is actually a bit more and so on.

In order to contribute, I think you have to be reasonably capable, really, otherwise if there was a overbearing but incapable skipper or group in the same boat as me without me being skipper i'd say er look matey/mateys, either drop me off at the next possible place or let me take control of the boat please.

Close or family groups don't really really need a skipper. I mean, out in someone else's boat, if they want me to helm or want me to do fenders, i'll do that. If they tell me to go faster or slower i'll comply. Is that cos they're skipper and boss -or owner and pay for my mistakes? Bit of both, really, and more of the latter, i reckon.

Mind you, i've not ever had someone say they weren't a leader. Um, so under tthose circumstances, anything might happen including someone insisting that as natural born etc etc and qualified etc etc they were taking control unilaterally...
 
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If I get onto someone elses boat it can realy freak me out as all bets are off and you just have to trust the skipper however difficult it is. I dont often go on other peoples boats for that reason.

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Hey Bruce, looks like you wont be going out on your own boat if the crew are calling the shots... ;-)
 
You see if you take upon yourself the title of skipper and your word is the last word, you can tell people untill you are blue in the face that they are respected and you will listen, it wont matter because they know that you will have the final say and impose a decision on them.

This state of affairs negates their responsiblility they must know, that they must think for themselves and you must have the courage to let them.
 
Well Das-Boot, again you put forward a question, then proceed to gleefully bat away many respectable responses to reaffirm your original opinion.
It hardly seems worth asking the question in the first place.

I do wonder should your tag line perhaps read: "more answers than questions"?

Still ne’er mind eh,,

Ian
 
Aiden
Well at least my line is consistant. And at the begining of the thread I did say that I dislike authority. Maybe my experience of certain skippers thickheadedness makes me not want to emulate them.

Ian
As for answering my own question I am trying to reply to differing points of view. I did not come to this point of veiw easily but in the preceding discussion I have seen many points of view which give me cause to think. However throwing in the towel immediatly would lead us to the consensus that I would seek on my boat.

Ian your arqument in fact upholds my point of view.

should I doff my cap now.
 
Re: ah er just a minute

um, if i'm on board (or i bet if lots of others are on board) a boat and they say "possibily a bit more sail up?" then it would be bloody dangerous if the person who owned the boat turned around and said "certainly, we can put more sail up if that's you have decided, although i should warn you that there's no skipper so we'll do what you say and YOU are responsible for the consequences."

I recently sailed with a skipper and made all sorts of nice noises and enthusiasm as we bashed along in quite a breeze. A moment later he decided we'd turn back. Which is fine. His decision, see. His boat as well, of course. My job was just to get on with it, whatever he decided "it" was.

Now if it was his boat (and him skipper regardless, really) and he decided to turn back in a f3 cos he didn't like the lack of smooth glassy sea - i wd implore him to continue but it's still his decision. His risk is then me being a bit peed off and not coming again, i spose.
 
This is in NO WAY an attack on your very interesting position- but aren't you 'calling the shots' from the outset in asking for the boat to be run consensually? In many ways your idea is admirable, but if I were one of your crew I would expect to have many meetings/team building exercises/trial sails before setting off in order to feel comfortable with the group dynamic, assessing my fellow sailors skills and weaknesses etc.
 
Leadership style is situation dependent. In easy time's you can relax sleep and go with the flow. When there's a problem that's got to be resolved quickly it means finding a solution and expediting it as quickly as possible .. therefore if you know what to do you tell people what do do. Whether they do or not depends on their respect/fear of you and how well you communicate... or how well as a team you can problem solve quickly. A crew is a team and every good team has members fulfilling the necessarilly different roles ... in fact it may be easier to lock 'em all down below and just get on with it until teatime.
 
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