Demand for moorings plummeting?

[Daydream believer]

Re: Nope !

Your attitude reminds me of the Daily Mash headline: "Government pledges to retain human rights act, after redefining 'Human' as anybody earning over 50k".

Does it not make you incredibly angry that, by your own admission, people on lower than average incomes cannot secure a mortgage and must instead pay someone else's, by renting from a buy to let landlord?

By the way, despite both SWMBO and I earning less than the 27k average, we do own a house, and a yacht, have a child, two nice cars, and no we do not live in an undesirable part of the country. But from your comments I guess people like us would not be welcome at your local club as we are poor and therefore the wrong sort of people.

And we wonder why sailing had this elitist image....

Yes it is disappointing that people cannot buy a house if they are on the lower income band. Being in the construction industry at the age of 16 I went on a study tour to Germany to understand how the Germans made it possible for lower income groups to buy houses so I have taken an interest. Whilst you have a house I expect that you have bought it it some time ago. My daughter bought hers in a recession when people who paid £80K had to sell for £48K. Opportunities are out there. If there are 2 of you working then the household salary is above £27K so you would not be in the " excluded" sector. If you benefited from someone's will that would make a difference. Some were able to take advantage of "right to buy" -Is that still available?
I would also point out that there is nothing wrong with renting , whether it be from a buy to let landlord, a housing authority or whatever. Are you suggesting that there is some sort of social stigma to that?

But I was considering the current market not the past market & not how those that have a house managed to get them. That is history.

How on earth you think that I would not welcome you at my club. That is rubbish. All I was doing was pointing out that the figures used for working out the averages for house buying were not really representative of the house buying sector. OK I used the term "losers" ( when I wrote it I was thinking of "losing out" not losers as "failures" & it came to me afterwards what i had written) which was wrong & i edited that. But for some reason you think that I have some objection to a portion of the community. That is certainly not so.
I pointed out in an earlier post that higher incomes are available in some industries (in construction at least) .That is a fact of life. It is these salaries that possibly fuel house prices. They are attainable to those that manage to pick the right career path & have the push to follow them. It does not mean everyone can do that though. But they are the ones that can buy houses & afford the mortgages
It is how one adjusts the statistics

 

[solent clown]

Re: Nope !

Wow, looks like the last few pages have not been off topic at all. No wonder people don't want to be around us lot. I hope you chaps are all more civil and friendly in real life eh :encouragement:
We have had rich guys in big yacht look down their noses at us in our dinghys, and we have had rich guys pull up and reminisce about sailng a small boat being the best time of their lives.
We are not rich. Hard working we are, and have made a lifestyle choice in that respect, karen has a job below her abilities and potential pay grade but it yields huge job satisfaction, and flexibility, so she can have time sailing. I run a workshop where we put providing experience and therapy before finance, but we are in the fortunate position that I do have other contracted work that keeps us going. We are fairly experienced sailors, very competent on the water, but we have only come recently to a larger boat because we frankly couldn't justify the costs.
We are very fortunate to have several marinas within walking distance of our house. The one we chose was not the cheapest, but it was the most friendly. We could have had a deep water berth for very little more. That would have been at the end of a long series of anonymous pontoons with little more than an unoccupied site office on the hard. Where we are is the perfect mix for us. The owners are on site every day so everything is kept on top of. If we need something they are there. As they run the place independently it is in their interest to keep the clients happy. More independent marinas with motivated friendly staff would be good. It is not going to happen though.
My nightmare scenario would be having to be a yacht club member and listen to the ramblings of a load of bitter old men at the bar to get myself up the waiting list for a mooring.
Sailing will undergo a slow suicide if we all do not make the effort to embrace.
Young, old, and those in the middle.
The common goal must be that unbeatable feeling of being out there on the water.
I bore everyone I can rigid about sailing, and take anyone I can out at the drop of a hat.
If you love it, share it, or it will sicken and die

 

[bedouin]

Re: Nope !

Sorry, don't agree with that, perhaps they are spending their money on other things because property is so unaffordable, the generation between 20-30 are having to deal with high property costs, tuition fees and student loans, pension costs etc etc

If the average salary is around £27K, then a simple 2 bed house at £230K is not easily obtainable for a single person, like I was when first buying.

Although I have missed out on final salary pensions, at 49, I have benefited from being able to buy a house when they were in reach of someone on a low salary and perhaps later on, the huge growth in house prices.

But that is not what the figures say. Housing (i.e. mortgage payments as a proportion of salary for first time buyers) are no worse now than they were 30 years ago.

If you look at the figures dispassionately it is hard to see how people now in their 20s are worse of than those now in their 50s. (Apart from my concerns about long term house price trends). ALl the figures show they have greater disposable income than their parents.

What has gone up is the standard of living they expect from day 1. Look at Starbucks coffee, Apple Phones, Sky subscriptions, gym membership, foreign holidays which this young generation regard as a right that for their parents were luxuries or unobtainable. People in their 20s these days spend more money causally on themselves (entertainment, clothes, leisure) than I do now and I am comparatively affluent.

As I said, they have different priorities and that is fine. And to get back to the origin of this thread owning a boat is not one of them. But don't blame the older generation if the younger doesn't share their priorities.

 

[Birdie]

Re: Nope !

But that is not what the figures say. Housing (i.e. mortgage payments as a proportion of salary for first time buyers) are no worse now than they were 30 years ago.

If you look at the figures dispassionately it is hard to see how people now in their 20s are worse of than those now in their 50s. (Apart from my concerns about long term house price trends). ALl the figures show they have greater disposable income than their parents.

What has gone up is the standard of living they expect from day 1. Look at Starbucks coffee, Apple Phones, Sky subscriptions, gym membership, foreign holidays which this young generation regard as a right that for their parents were luxuries or unobtainable. People in their 20s these days spend more money causally on themselves (entertainment, clothes, leisure) than I do now and I am comparatively affluent.

As I said, they have different priorities and that is fine. And to get back to the origin of this thread owning a boat is not one of them. But don't blame the older generation if the younger doesn't share their priorities.

Who blamed the older generation? I think some of the older generation are completely out of touch, but I don't blame them for the situation now,

I only spoke from my specific experience of buying a house on a poor salary 22 years ago to when I sold it 2 years ago, which would be completely unaffordable on the average salary now for a single person. Information is out there about the drop in first time buyers, unaffordable housing etc etc but it seems people still are argue that its not the case. I was only trying to make the point that an expensive hobby such as sailing is probably low down on priorities these days for the younger generation.

Lets also not forget that a large number of working people will be feeling fairly despondent about what sort of pension they will end up with and therefore the way they spend their money on experiences now might be different to those on good pensions now.

It will be interesting to see how this pans out over the next 10 to 15 years.

 

[Capt Popeye]

Re: Nope !

Humm might add, that ones Income is not the only criteria used when being assess for any Loan or Mortgage, is it ?

Reliability of Annual Income is an issue, might suggest that with todays Company plus Govt plan of Out Sourcing and relying on Agency Workers a persons reliability with regard income has gone out the window.

Might just be that that essential criteria has been overlook by the Accountants, Govts and Company's ?

 

[Daydream believer]

Re: Nope !

Humm might add, that ones Income is not the only criteria used when being assess for any Loan or Mortgage, is it ?

Reliability of Annual Income is an issue, might suggest that with todays Company plus Govt plan of Out Sourcing and relying on Agency Workers a persons reliability with regard income has gone out the window.

Might just be that that essential criteria has been overlook by the Accountants, Govts and Company's ?

I think that one of the biggest scandals of modern times is that the working man can save all he likes but just does not know what his pension is going to be in the future. It was bad enough with endowment mortgages. But paying into a pension for years then finding that your pension provider decides to sell your pension plan to someone ten years before maturity to then find that the new provider uses your pension to pay the bill is fraudulent.
My own provider, Royal, sold to Phoenix. In the last 10 years it rose by virtually nothing. They cancelled all bonuses. But if one had invested with a typical equity fund one would have made a sizeable profit, so for the provider to claim it was a time of poor returns was simply either poor management or fraudulent miss use of funds.
So someone has to put as much into their pension as they can. They should but to have it plundered is just scandalous. It is the fear of this that must weigh heavy on everyones mind once they get to their 50's
Coupled with job insecurity - which for many is nothing new - mining, steel, cars, shipbuilding for starters- that makes it difficult

 

[Capt Popeye]

Re: Nope !

I think that one of the biggest scandals of modern times is that the working man can save all he likes but just does not know what his pension is going to be in the future. It was bad enough with endowment mortgages. But paying into a pension for years then finding that your pension provider decides to sell your pension plan to someone ten years before maturity to then find that the new provider uses your pension to pay the bill is fraudulent.
My own provider, Royal, sold to Phoenix. In the last 10 years it rose by virtually nothing. They cancelled all bonuses. But if one had invested with a typical equity fund one would have made a sizeable profit, so for the provider to claim it was a time of poor returns was simply either poor management or fraudulent miss use of funds.
So someone has to put as much into their pension as they can. They should but to have it plundered is just scandalous. It is the fear of this that must weigh heavy on everyones mind once they get to their 50's
Coupled with job insecurity - which for many is nothing new - mining, steel, cars, shipbuilding for starters- that makes it difficult

Humm well a good sound posting there kind Sir, nothing thats considered to be False News, eh ?

 

[Seajet]

Re: Nope !

Another angle about our discussion here just struck me; how is camping going as a pastime - genuine question - ?

People sometimes equate cruising on even fairly large boats as ' a version of camping ' - I'm not sure I agree with that ( sailing also requiring a very great deal more skill and dedication ) as the last time I tried camping it was a lot wetter and less comfortable than any sailing I've done, but I can see a slight parallel in that camping and sailing require a certain amount of effort rather than being waited on in hotels etc.

I know on another forum a fair proportion of ex boat owners of around retirement age have successfuly taken to motorhomes, my parents did this and thoroughly enjoyed it but then they maybe weren't all that dedicated to sailing to begin with.

So how is camping - or god forbid, caravanning - going nowadays ?

 

[Resolution]

Re: Nope !

I think that one of the biggest scandals of modern times is that the working man can save all he likes but just does not know what his pension is going to be in the future. It was bad enough with endowment mortgages. But paying into a pension for years then finding that your pension provider decides to sell your pension plan to someone ten years before maturity to then find that the new provider uses your pension to pay the bill is fraudulent.
My own provider, Royal, sold to Phoenix. In the last 10 years it rose by virtually nothing. They cancelled all bonuses. But if one had invested with a typical equity fund one would have made a sizeable profit, so for the provider to claim it was a time of poor returns was simply either poor management or fraudulent miss use of funds.
So someone has to put as much into their pension as they can. They should but to have it plundered is just scandalous. It is the fear of this that must weigh heavy on everyones mind once they get to their 50's
Coupled with job insecurity - which for many is nothing new - mining, steel, cars, shipbuilding for starters- that makes it difficult

You raise a worrying subject. My father instilled in me the importance of not putting all your eggs into one basket. He had no pension - a victim of war years and ill health - and advised me to aim for three different types of savings for a secure old age: a pension, some stock market investments, and some property. Funny there was no mention of a boat!
Well I have a work pension, but it is a large scheme and only partially funded, and the company provider is not guaranteed to survive. As for the State pension, after reading the views of some of the younger generation on this thread I would not bet against this being trimmed as pensioners start to outnumber current workers. And other personal savings will be at real risk if /when the Corbyn Communists get into power.
The only sensible thing to do is to keep the boat and stay afloat!

 

[solent clown]

Re: Nope !

Another angle about our discussion here just struck me; how is camping going as a pastime - genuine question - ?

People sometimes equate cruising on even fairly large boats as ' a version of camping ' - I'm not sure I agree with that ( sailing also requiring a very great deal more skill and dedication ) as the last time I tried camping it was a lot wetter and less comfortable than any sailing I've done, but I can see a slight parallel in that camping and sailing require a certain amount of effort rather than being waited on in hotels etc.

I know on another forum a fair proportion of ex boat owners of around retirement age have successfuly taken to motorhomes, my parents did this and thoroughly enjoyed it but then they maybe weren't all that dedicated to sailing to begin with.

So how is camping - or god forbid, caravanning - going nowadays ?

Going great in the forest. I suppose if you take in to account festivals the da yoof go to then there has been a real explosion in numbers.
Get a dinghy, boom tent, and combine the two - best bit is it's absolutely free if you pick the right spots. Downside, if it is raining it is the worst kind of hell within minutes.

 

[Seajet]

Re: Nope !

SWMBO and I tried the second of those options about 12 years ago; thanks to the mudwall of the tent - which wasn't el cheapo - being the only reliably waterproof bit, we really could have done with a bilge pump, my camping trips with mates years before that seemed to end up the same way - though I hadn't thought of the festival side of it, I suppose when one's taking funny substances and getting between stages on a Unicorn one doesn't notice the Somme-like conditions !

 

[Biggles Wader]

Re: Nope !

I wonder if we are reading too much into this "decline" in boat ownership? Apart from a couple of brief periods of expansion such as the loadsa money eighties and the pre 2007 norties I'm not really convinced yacht ownership has ever been very high. The current dip can easily be explained by the fact that real incomes have never recovered from the 2007 financial crisis and show no signs of doing so any time soon, so why would people be taking on an expensive liability? You need confidence for that.
Looking back to the early 1970s not many people owned yachts where I grew up and youngsters like me got interested in sailing because we lived by the sea and were able to sail on OPBs (Other Peoples Boats).
I'm sure youngsters who lived away from the sea didn't get into sailing much just like now. I think possibly more people do it now if anything, and sailing will make a comeback if and when the economic outlook improves, with demand for boats rising too.
Was it some POTUS who said "its the economy stupid"?

 

[saltySide]

Re: Nope !

Brought my boat to live aboard when I was 26, took a fairly large personal loan to buy it. Had to transported over land from Norfolk to an expensive marina in London. It's very expensive to be a solo liveaboard in London but if there's two of you, it's by far the cheapest way to live here by far (if you can get a mooring spot).
Looked at a few sailboats but cruisers were more comfortable for living full time aboard. Usually go out 4 times a year, tearing up the Thames at 10 knots

I've noticed more and more younger people buying boats, not for the love of it but to save money. However, a good amount of these people will develop an interest in all things boating eventually.

 

[Seven Spades]

The present day Boomers aged 55 to 72 broke mankind's intergenerational covenant which is to strive to make the world a better place for the next generation.

Plummeting participation in British yachting is a minor symptom of the negative consequences of the financial greed of the Boomers, things will get a lot worse. It is a sick joke that the demographic bulge of Boomers represented in this forum cannot face up to the manifest economic damage they caused and instead they blame young people for not being made of the right stuff.

What are you on about are you some kind of commie?

People aged 55-72 are no different to anyone else, they were brought up at a time of great inflation that eroded the true value of their mortgages, so with rising income and inflation, once on the ladder their debt was irrelevant after a relativly short period. On the other hand any one with savings found that their savings were compleatly eroded by infalation and found themselves living on fixed incomes. You might be interested to know that stastically today mortage re-payments are a lower proportion of take home pay than in the 80's because interest rates were up to 15%.

All that has happend today is that inflation and intestest rates are very low so, if you buy a property you have to pay for it with your real income. It has nothing to do with people of a certain age. If anything it is the young people who voted the hugy profligate Blair/Brown governments who raided pension funds and saddled the country wth a huge national debt so much so that the government had no choice but to increase the Blair/Brown ntroduced tuition fees. Remember is was a shocked Liberal Democrats that supported this move having seen the real numbers.

 

[maby]

What are you on about are you some kind of commie?

People aged 55-72 are no different to anyone else, they were brought up at a time of great inflation that eroded the true value of their mortgages, so with rising income and inflation, once on the ladder their debt was irrelevant after a relativly short period. On the other hand any one with savings found that their savings were compleatly eroded by infalation and found themselves living on fixed incomes. You might be interested to know that stastically today mortage re-payments are a lower proportion of take home pay than in the 80's because interest rates were up to 15%.

All that has happend today is that inflation and intestest rates are very low so, if you buy a property you have to pay for it with your real income. It has nothing to do with people of a certain age. If anything it is the young people who voted the hugy profligate Blair/Brown governments who raided pension funds and saddled the country wth a huge national debt so much so that the government had no choice but to increase the Blair/Brown ntroduced tuition fees. Remember is was a shocked Liberal Democrats that supported this move having seen the real numbers.

Exactly - inflation was a wonderful thing and the success of recent governments in virtually eliminating it has been a disaster. We bought our first house in the early eighties on a 100% mortgage of exactly three times my salary. Life was hard for the first 12 months - we really did have to live on beans on toast and the only furniture we had was a mattress on the floor. But a year later I got a big pay rise, the mortgage payments stayed the same and we could begin to relax. Another three or four years of big pay rises and life was easy.

 

[Seven Spades]

Any the point is that you have done nothing to young people and are in no way to blame. Unfortunatly there is a generation growing up with huge chip on their shoulder and trying to blame older people for their plight.

There are other contributing factors mainly the ban on smoking leading to longer life expectancy and mass immigration. We are unable to build houses as fast as the population is growing. Unless population growth is seen as an issue this country will beciome one huge slab of concrete. If you want a vision of the future go to Tokyo, it is not a future I desire. Quality of life will continue to fall as population grows.

 

[Daydream believer]

Quality of life will continue to fall as population grows.

If population is growing ( agreed) then what sporting activities are expanding proportionally to match? We have suggested that sailing is contracting. Is sport across the community as a whole contracting? Is it that the increased portion of the community is a bunch of lazy b..rs who do not believe in sport or just cannot afford to be involved in sport?
Re the increase in population -there are figures to demonstrate that this is due to 2 major factors- 1) immigration 2) birth rate from the immigrant population- that includes the "slightly more established" immigrant population . It has been noted that the birth rate among the "long term" or indigenous UK population is actually falling.
It may be ( & i am not trying to start a Brexit drift here) that if Brexit does actually reduce the immigration numbers then the rate of population expansion may be reduced.. If the immigrant sector of the population gains wealth then they may have funds to spend on sport. However, if they have a culture that does not lend itself to sport then that will not happen. Perhaps it depends on whether an eastern or a western culture eventually comes out on top
It also depends on what sort of sport. male dominated mass sports such as football will always be tops. Sports such as sailing are a bit more " refined" & need a bit more , shall we say, effort & skill just to get past the basics. Not quite like kicking a ball against a wall on an estate.
I wonder if anyone has actually tried to "grade" pastimes & sports as a level of difficulty starting at entry level & working upwards. IeTo go walking just means flapping ones legs back & forth, to go fishing one has to buy rods & reel, bait etc. , camping -buy a tent. caravaning needs a car & a caravan & so on. To go sailing on a cruiser can be quite difficult if you want your own boat.

 

[dom]

Any the point is that you have done nothing to young people and are in no way to blame. Unfortunatly there is a generation growing up with huge chip on their shoulder and trying to blame older people for their plight.

Quality of life will continue to fall as population grows.

Terrible scourge the young, Capt. Mainwaring!

And now I know why Singapore is so poor

 

[Muddy32]

what has all this to do with mooring availablity?

 

[maby]

what has all this to do with mooring availablity?

I think it started out as a suggestion that the younger generation does not have the spare cash that we Baby Boomers have, so cannot afford a boat - and turned into an analysis of why their should be this drop in living standards for them relative to their parents.