Delrin bullseye

[Neil_Y]

I'm adding a third reef to the main. I've had the work done on the sail, now I need to modify the boom.

The existing reef lines are run through what I would call bullseyes, which are simple low friction eyes riveted in to the side of the boom. Yes I know some form of block would be better but it works well enough and it's quite neat.

I can't find any for sale anywhere, and a Google search turns up skateboard wheel bearings for some reason.

Is there another name for them? And suggestions for a source in Spain (can't find them on SVB)

I see a problem with bringing the reef out of the side of the boom, (if I'm understanding this correctly) You may not get enough of a horizontal pull aft of the clew. Having the reef lines coming out the aft of the boom is the best way to have good foot tension in the sail. As in normal set up like this

 

[Kelpie]

I see a problem with bringing the reef out of the side of the boom, (if I'm understanding this correctly) You may not get enough of a horizontal pull aft of the clew. Having the reef lines coming out the aft of the boom is the best way to have good foot tension in the sail. As in normal set up like this

I'm just replicating the existing first and second reef design. It's an old roller boom which has been converted.
If money was no object I would get a new boom with sheaves at the end... but money is an object so I'm sticking with it.

 

[Neeves]

I'm just replicating the existing first and second reef design. It's an old roller boom which has been converted.
If money was no object I would get a new boom with sheaves at the end... but money is an object so I'm sticking with it.

True PBO motivation and answers.

Our 3rd reef is single line reefing as Neil illustrates (except his is 2 independent lines). We find it best to retrieve the third reefing lines as we put reefs 1 and 2 in. Otherwise you have huge lengths of string flying in the wind - it also means when you put in the the third reef there is less string cluttering up the cockpit as you have tidied up as you go along. Its another reason to use dyneema as you can down size and the volume of string is reduced.

Good luck - but I don't think you need luck - just patience (you need to drill quite a big hole and you might not have a drill bit of the right size? + a file to smooth off the inside of the hole??)

I'd value some pics, just quick snaps. of the new device (and the old ones) if you remember - in situ. . I'm not entirely visualising where the ropes goes inside the boom - down toward the mast? to the goose neck?

Jonathan

 

[Kelpie]

The lines exit the boom about a metre from the gooseneck and go through clutches. The winch is mounted on the mast.
I should really be fitting a third clutch too, I'll have to see what will fit in the space and what I can get my hands on.

 

[William_H]

I see a problem with bringing the reef out of the side of the boom, (if I'm understanding this correctly) You may not get enough of a horizontal pull aft of the clew. Having the reef lines coming out the aft of the boom is the best way to have good foot tension in the sail. As in normal set up like this

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This is not the only way to attach clew reefing line. You can have a bulls eye or turning cheek block mounted on the side of the boom. You then fit a saddle or similar rope attachment on the other side of the boom. The location of these 2 should be such that with the 3rd reef clew down to the boom the reefing line is pulling at 45 degrees to the boom. ie equal pull down to the boom and out to the boom end to give foot tension. (so a bit aft of below reefing eyelet when down)The system as pictured is ok but tension share between down and outwards is done by one part pulling down only and one part pulling outwards only. ol'will

 

[Neeves]

The lines exit the boom about a metre from the gooseneck and go through clutches. The winch is mounted on the mast.
I should really be fitting a third clutch too, I'll have to see what will fit in the space and what I can get my hands on.

I don't know what yacht you have (and doubt its a cat) but we too had a 3rd reef installed (ours was at the build stage) but it was a novelty for the builder as they had not installed a 3rd reef previously. My reasoning was based on our campaigning our monohull - which was not necessarily valid (though the 3rd reef itself has been invaluable).

This is some of our experience - which might promote some thoughts.

When our cat was being built it came as standard with winches on the mast. This is, or was, common practice on multihulls (at least in Australia) as it is well known, incorrectly in my view (certainly when weather demands you need a 3rd reef), that cats are stable and sail flat.

Things have changed slightly and winches back in the cockpit are now more common.

However having ocean raced in all weather I did not fancy putting a third reef in at the mast when short handed, a cruising couple. I left the winches on the mast and had mast based blocks and a deck organiser (custom made) to allow the second and third reef and halyard to come back to the cockpit. It was one of my better modifications. We use the third reef a lot ((and seldom use the first reef - which, with the second, is the Selden system).

The main halyard and the reefing lines are all marked - we know exactly when we have the reef properly set - you don't need to look - just grind until the marks arrive. The marks are prominent and you can see the mark 'crawling' down the deck toward you.

I also decided that I was not going to ever instal and rig a tri-sail (as a cruising couple) and out 3rd reef reduces the main sail area by 75% - so the 3rd reef is unusually large, we do have a storm jib which fits on an inner forestay. To instal a trysail I would need to stand on the cabin roof and as the cabin roof can have seas breaking over it (its 3m above sea level) its not a location for sail change.

Our cat was rigged with a very flat self tacking jib, which was a complete waste of time in weather that was conducive for sailing. We had a 150% Genoa built and I installed tracks for the cars and an extra winch, one only as we cross sheet (so one person can tack the yacht). The Genoa uses the same furler as the useless self tacking jib - except the flat jib is perfect when we have 3 reefs in. The furled Genoa had too much windage and loses shape when part furled. when we know we will need the third reef we take the Genoa off, pack it (great fun ) and replace it with the jib.

This is not very efficient - packing a 35^2m sail is not a bunch of laughs - but other than buying, another, Genoa that furls with a better shape or having another forestay and furler - both of which are non-starters - I don't know.....??

The flat jib earns its keep when we need to beat in big winds - so it is not wasted.

You don't need an extra clutch if the winch you use to reef can be dedicated to the task - just leave the line (single line reefing?) on the winch or use a 'V' cleat, temporarily. If you need to use the winch simply drop the reefing line into the 'V' cleat, complete the task needing the winch then put the reefing line back on the winch and secure.

Jonathan

 

[Kelpie]

We've had lines led aft and reefing at the mast, on various different boats. My conclusion is that lines led aft only works if it's very well thought out with a lot of money spent on ball raced blocks, deck organisers, clutches, etc.
On a mono with a fairly low coachroof I don't find working at the mast too precarious. It allows everything to be kept very simple with minimal friction and the fewest possible points for lines to get caught or tangled.

 

[GHA]

We've had lines led aft and reefing at the mast, on various different boats. My conclusion is that lines led aft only works if it's very well thought out with a lot of money spent on ball raced blocks, deck organisers, clutches, etc.
On a mono with a fairly low coachroof I don't find working at the mast too precarious. It allows everything to be kept very simple with minimal friction and the fewest possible points for lines to get caught or tangled.

Agree with reefing at the mast on a long distance cruising boat. Much less to go wrong or break when you least want it to go wrong.

My 3rd reef spends much more time offshore rigged becalmed rather than lots wind offshore to try & cut down a noisy banging main for a day or 3 waiting for wind.

 

[Kelpie]

Agree with reefing at the mast on a long distance cruising boat. Much less to go wrong or break when you least want it to go wrong.

My 3rd reef spends much more time offshore rigged becalmed rather than lots wind offshore to try & cut down a noisy banging main for a day or 3 waiting for wind.

Perhaps the difference is that on a cruising boat you tend to sail conservatively and reef early.
We've never let things get too hairy and felt unable to leave the cockpit.

The biggest advantage I think you'd get from lines led aft is that it allows a solo watchkeeper to reef without waking up another crew member. Assuming everybody has the same sort of rules as us, which includes nobody leaving the cockpit on a solo watch.

 

[GHA]

The biggest advantage I think you'd get from lines led aft is that it allows a solo watchkeeper to reef without waking up another crew member. Assuming everybody has the same sort of rules as us, which includes nobody leaving the cockpit on a solo watch.

Did a delivery recently on a HR fortysomething with single line reefing. Conformation I'd never have it on a cruising boat, not if but when it will all go wrong. Singlehanded reefing not so bad, everything at the mast. Chatting about this last night in a bar & not the only one never to round up but harden up a touch maybe then slowly pull the main down when the sail looses tension as the boat rolls.
Dyneema has helped lots in other places where less friction is good, rain stops play today so might splice a bit in to a reefing line.

 

[dunedin]

Agree with reefing at the mast on a long distance cruising boat. Much less to go wrong or break when you least want it to go wrong.

My 3rd reef spends much more time offshore rigged becalmed rather than lots wind offshore to try & cut down a noisy banging main for a day or 3 waiting for wind.

Not sure I understand the "much less to go wrong or break" with reefing lines and halyard at mast rather than led aft. Seems like one extra pulley at the bottom of the mast is the only extra gear and, properly sized, never known one of these turning blocks fail.

 

[GHA]

Not sure I understand the "much less to go wrong or break" with reefing lines and halyard at mast rather than led aft. Seems like one extra pulley at the bottom of the mast is the only extra gear and, properly sized, never known one of these turning blocks fail.

Ah apologies, brain went straight to single line reefing when it saw all lines led aft.
Though that sounds even worse for a cruising boat, now 2 people needed to reef, still need to hook the sail cringle round the rams horn. IMHO over time a cruising boat will become ever simpler with less to go wrong..
Each to their own, & every boat is different of course.

 

[GHA]

1 down 2 to go. Pulls easy through the leech cringles ?

 

[Neeves]

1 down 2 to go. Pulls easy through the leech cringles ?

As far as I can tell you are whipping over the rope to rope splice (or the cover of), or Dyneema to polyester. Have you thought of heat shrink

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

Our snubbers, 12mm kernmantle (dynamic climbing rope), came with sewn eyes at both ends - and the sewing protected with shrink covers. I cut the eyes off at one end of each - or I could not feed them through the stanchion bases. Sewn eyes are quite common on climbing rope - though often cut off as the eyes are a hinderance if you need to retrieve rope as the eyes stick in cracks between rocks or on slings.



Jonathan

 

[Daydream believer]

I have single line reefing & like it. But the third reef has only been used once in the last 20 years. That means that if the 3rd reef line was permanently rigged, every time I hoisted the sail or reefed I would have lots of redundant rope to the 3rd reef to tidy up. It would garotte me in the cockpit as I lowered the sail.
So i would first ask the OP how many times he actually NEEDS 3 reefs. Very few I expect. Does he want it as an emergency backup if caught that once every 10 years? If he uses it a lot then perhaps the ratio of reefs on the sail is wrong in the first place.
My solution may save a lot of effort.
I have a snap clip on the clew outhaul.( actually I have since installed a dedicated line but the OP does not have this option so forget that) This line is a little long for the purpose. Laying in the lazy cover is a short strop.
If conditions get violent then I drop the boom into the cockpit & rig the line as shown It is safer than trying to grab a swinging boom in rough seas


On the other end I have a strop which anchors the luff utilising the spinnaker ring. However the Op could use some other fixing point I am sure. That means going forward. But unfortunately necessary.

The beauty of this is that if reef 1 or 2 fail for any reason I can use it to replace them in an emergency
The strop hangs on the mast & makes a handy hand hold in rough weather.

 

[Kelpie]

@Daydream believer I quite like that idea.
In 12yrs of big boat sailing, I've used a 3rd reef once- and that wasn't really necessary, I was just having a bad day trying to exit Loch Nevis with a clogged fuel filter and strong katabatic squalls coming from all directions.

The current boat was only set up with two reefs, but we're about to head to the Canaries and then the Caribbean, and I'm just trying to make a few precautionary upgrades. I got the third reef points put in the sail before we left.

I reef at the mast and don't have single line reefing, so even for the third reef it's not all that much line. I'm going to set it up and see how I get on. If it's causing problems, I can just unreeve it from the sail, put a stopper knot in the end, and then coil up the excess. Maybe set it up at the start of a long passage just in case.

 

[GHA]

The current boat was only set up with two reefs, but we're about to head to the Canaries and then the Caribbean, and I'm just trying to make a few precautionary upgrades. I got the third reef points put in the sail before we left.

IMHO an offshore cruising boat really should have deep reefs easy to put in at 3am when a nasty squall line goes over and all hell is breaking loose for a few hours...
And quieter becalmed. ?

Only converted the 1st reef to dyneema but it slides so nicely through the leech reefing cringle the main should barely notice the 3rd reefing line.

 

[thinwater]

....The biggest advantage I think you'd get from lines led aft is that it allows a solo watchkeeper to reef without waking up another crew member. Assuming everybody has the same sort of rules as us, which includes nobody leaving the cockpit on a solo watch.

Since quite a few people singlehand, no, I do not feel that is a vital, universal, widespread, or even important rule. You do need to be careful and perhaps clip a jackline. Let's not argue from a false assumption. I feel it is more important to be able to reach any point of the deck, at any time, safely, and the only way that happens is through practice.

 

[Kelpie]

Since quite a few people singlehand, no, I do not feel that is a vital, universal, widespread, or even important rule. You do need to be careful and perhaps clip a jackline. Let's not argue from a false assumption. I feel it is more important to be able to reach any point of the deck, at any time, safely, and the only way that happens is through practice.

Fair point. We sail two up (plus child) and it's just the rule that works for us. In daylight and good conditions whoever is going forward might just shout out to the other person to let them know. If it's remotely rough then it's time for a tether.