Defective Anchors - beware imitations

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I would be a little bit apprehensive about trimarans self righting ability

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I totally understand that. I get apprehensive every time I go on a keelboat about their self floating ability...

Megawat
Thinking about the seacocks and all the other miscellaneous hullholes brings me out in a cold sweat /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
Just come back from a day in the middle of England and about as far away from the sea as one can get!

Fascinated as usual by all the incorrect assumptions and misconceptions, usualy born of ignorance!

Just to set the record straight. It was one (racing) Bavaria model. There were problems with the keel. The one that lost its keel was alleged to have done a fair amount of rock bashing as it was being used as a charter boat in a area where there are a lot of uncharted rocks. However, unlike other high profile examples of keels coming off there was never an official investigation or report so everything you read about it (including what I have written) is based on unconfirmed reports.

However, the main point is that these days fin keels on production boats do not systemically give problems. Early designs, like many new ideas did, but lessons have been learned, quality of design and materials has improved out of all recognition - but prejudice dies slowly!

The main issue of anchor failure is still, however a problem, particularly as it is almost impossible to predict such failures.

My cast plough copy is now a garden decoration, replaced by a Delta, but even after a season's use not convinced it works any better, although it does not have the risk of the kind of failure in the original post.
 
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Just come back from a day in the middle of England and about as far away from the sea as one can get!

Fascinated as usual by all the incorrect assumptions and misconceptions, usualy born of ignorance!

Just to set the record straight. It was one (racing) Bavaria model. There were problems with the keel. The one that lost its keel was alleged to have done a fair amount of rock bashing as it was being used as a charter boat in a area where there are a lot of uncharted rocks. However, unlike other high profile examples of keels coming off there was never an official investigation or report so everything you read about it (including what I have written) is based on unconfirmed reports.

However, the main point is that these days fin keels on production boats do not systemically give problems. Early designs, like many new ideas did, but lessons have been learned, quality of design and materials has improved out of all recognition - but prejudice dies slowly!



I understand the owners of Bavaria yachts wanting to defend their vessels but the fact remains that there have been many of those fin keel failures so how practical are they really in a cruising yacht?
One look at them alarms me when you consider the stresses & strains concerned.Just scrubbing the bottom is a logistical nightmare & the consequences of a grounding don't bare thinking about.......& then there are their sea keeping qualities as highlighted by things like the fastnet disaster & only the other day Mike Golding sailed all around the world only to have his keel drop off coming across the bay of Biscay just days from home.So it is not all just things of the past.
No thanks mate.I am not prepared to throw out of the window hundreds of years of seafaring tradition just yet.particularly when there are so many alternatives available.
Each to his own as they say.
 
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I understand the owners of Bavaria yachts wanting to defend their vessels but the fact remains that there have been many of those fin keel failures so how practical are they really in a cruising yacht?
One look at them alarms me when you consider the stresses & strains concerned.Just scrubbing the bottom is a logistical nightmare & the consequences of a grounding don't bare thinking about.......& then there are their sea keeping qualities as highlighted by things like the fastnet disaster & only the other day Mike Golding sailed all around the world only to have his keel drop off coming across the bay of Biscay just days from home.So it is not all just things of the past.
No thanks mate.I am not prepared to throw out of the window hundreds of years of seafaring tradition just yet.particularly when there are so many alternatives available.
Each to his own as they say.


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Well you obviously sail a copy of the Marie Rose. Ooops but then didn't she capsize in the Solent?

Were you out in the 1979 Fastnet storm or dried out hiding in Twaddle Creek? I think you need to read a few other books that tell the tales of the many long keeled heavies that foundered in storms, and that back in the days when there were far fewer leisure boats around. Talk about a closed mind.
 
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there have been many of those fin keel failures so how practical are they really in a cruising yacht?

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Well I will rise to this silliness....

1) easily manouvered under power, so picking up a mooring or manouvering in the confines of a marina is easy.
2) Easily driven to windward with a modern sloop rig so a light crew or a inexperienced crew can manouver off a lee shore.
3) Generally faster for a given length so providing faster passage times.
5) Boats are generally lighter than a full keel so allowing lighter rigs and lighter loads for short handed inexperienced crews.
6) Lower build costs so opening up the opportunites for sailing to a wider audience.
7) Full keels do not offer a greater resistance to capsize, (Though they may have a higher AVS) so I do not feel that they inherintly are more unsafe for offshore passages.
8) Some forms of fin keel, in particular a swing keel, or bilge keels, offer odvious advantage in draught and drying out, over a long keel, and certainly fin keels can be easier to refloat than a long keel after a grounding.




I think that there are odviously many many advantages of a fin keel on a modern cruising boat over a full keel that the idea that somehow they are unsuited is nonsense. and in regards to strenght, well please give me some!
 
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I understand the owners of Bavaria yachts wanting to defend their vessels but the fact remains that there have been many of those fin keel failures so how practical are they really in a cruising yacht?
One look at them alarms me when you consider the stresses & strains concerned.Just scrubbing the bottom is a logistical nightmare & the consequences of a grounding don't bare thinking about.......& then there are their sea keeping qualities as highlighted by things like the fastnet disaster & only the other day Mike Golding sailed all around the world only to have his keel drop off coming across the bay of Biscay just days from home.So it is not all just things of the past.
No thanks mate.I am not prepared to throw out of the window hundreds of years of seafaring tradition just yet.particularly when there are so many alternatives available.
Each to his own as they say.


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Well you obviously sail a copy of the Marie Rose. Ooops but then didn't she capsize in the Solent?

Were you out in the 1979 Fastnet storm or dried out hiding in Twaddle Creek? I think you need to read a few other books that tell the tales of the many long keeled heavies that foundered in storms, and that back in the days when there were far fewer leisure boats around. Talk about a closed mind.

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I don't sail anything like the Mary Rose but a very heavily built fibre glass bilge keeler.It sails a steady course with the tiller pegged & is not like those overblown dinghy's that set sail in the fastnet race.
There is a lot more to yacht design than just the keel but at least I have got the wits to realize it!
 
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there have been many of those fin keel failures so how practical are they really in a cruising yacht?

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Well I will rise to this silliness....

1) easily manouvered under power, so picking up a mooring or manouvering in the confines of a marina is easy.
2) Easily driven to windward with a modern sloop rig so a light crew or a inexperienced crew can manouver off a lee shore.
3) Generally faster for a given length so providing faster passage times.
5) Boats are generally lighter than a full keel so allowing lighter rigs and lighter loads for short handed inexperienced crews.
6) Lower build costs so opening up the opportunites for sailing to a wider audience.
7) Full keels do not offer a greater resistance to capsize, (Though they may have a higher AVS) so I do not feel that they inherintly are more unsafe for offshore passages.
8) Some forms of fin keel, in particular a swing keel, or bilge keels, offer odvious advantage in draught and drying out, over a long keel, and certainly fin keels can be easier to refloat than a long keel after a grounding.




I think that there are odviously many many advantages of a fin keel on a modern cruising boat over a full keel that the idea that somehow they are unsuited is nonsense. and in regards to strenght, well please give me some!

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I have never advocated a full traditional keel but it is interesting that you should automatically jump to that conclusion.There are happy mediums & they should give you both strength & versatility /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
Well, I dont follow what you are driving at....

As far as I see you either have a form of fin,( bilge keels, Centerboard, swing, lifting, fixed, long or short , ) or a mulithull, or a full length keel (Or partial full length as in Rustler..) or maybe just a shedload of ballast.....

So, I would be interested to hear what you would espouse as a ideal.... I can certainly see were you are coming from if you are big on Bilge keelers... But i dont think that they are inherintly stronger than a single fin... and certainly the majority are not as effiecient as a modernish fin... (Odvious exapmples like Stretchs boat aside).... in fact there have been many problems with poor engineering on "Heavy" fin keel boats with stress fractures etc....

I think that concentrating on the keel is a mistake, it is not the keel that is the modern fin boats weakness, it is the spade rudder, which I do not think is suitable for a long term cruisng boat. Keel failures on modern fin cruisers are virtually unheard of, including Bavarias... but rudderfailure is a widespread problem.
 
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I understand the owners of Bavaria yachts wanting to defend their vessels but the fact remains that there have been many of those fin keel failures so how practical are they really in a cruising yacht?

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You seem very sure of yourself on the subject of fin keels. Please provide authoritative links documenting these failures.

I think you should stop for a moment and ponder why 50% to 80% of the ARC boats crossing the Atlantic each season are fin keelers and why zero percent have keels.

Do you drive a 3 wheel car as a matter of interest?
 
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I don't sail anything like the Mary Rose but a very heavily built fibre glass bilge keeler.

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Why are you not prepared to name the design of this nautical tank?

Anyhow you demonstrate great ignorance on the subject of yacht design. Your boat shares little structurally speaking with traditional hull design, in fact my Bavaria Match 35 has more in common with a 200 year old sailing ship than your yacht.

Your yacht is actually based on 1960's monocoque automobile structural principals. Things like chainplates, the mast step and bilge plates are bolted onto the heavy layup of the skin. Little thought is given to distributing these loads because at the time GRP was considered the wonder material that could deal with all sorts of stress and abuse. The early Nicholson 32s were the classic example of this design failing and these yachts required a recall that retrofitted stringers to the bow sections.

Like a traditional sailing ship that has a structural skeleton wrapped in a watertight skin, my Match 35 has a spacial structure what would dwarf any token stringers moulded into your yacht.
 
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What started as an interesting and potentially informative thread seems to have deteriorated into the inevitable, albeit somewhat tedious, anti modern yacht build propaganda. How sad.

Back to the OP, which part has failed, it isn't clear from the photograph. If it's the weld, is there any evidence why and what was the mode of failure? Lack of penetration? Thermal or other stress crack. Is the rusting pre or post failure?

The Post regarding owner observation seems fair. Perhaps a good lesson for us all is to look over our vessels with a keen eye regularly. Streaky rust leaks are usually worthy of further investigation.

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David please accept my apology for my previous reply to this 'quoted'. I now realise that you may have used quick reply and not meant to target my post.

IMHO it's about time "Quick reply" was removed from the forums to stop this sort of thing happening ...
 
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........Just to set the record straight. It was one (racing) Bavaria model. There were problems with the keel. The one that lost its keel was alleged to have done a fair amount of rock bashing as it was being used as a charter boat in a area where there are a lot of uncharted rocks. ........

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As I posted earlier - 1 lost it's keel agreed - others of the fleet showed varying levels of damage also that would eventually lead to keel loss also.
It was alleged by "others" that the boat had been bashing rocks - denied by owners. and quite rightly they cited that all the boats displayed keel problems so made it even more unlikely to have been rock bashing. That would mean that all boats would have had to sailed exactly same tracks etc.

It went quiet after a lot of hullabaloo between the owners and Bavaria ... outcome ? But does that matter ? The fact is damage was done and also damage to Bavaria reputation whether it was true or not.

So which incorrect info now ?

As Kristoferkolumbus (maybe I have ID spelt wrong ... sorry) - you may be an engineer but I think you have stepped outside realms of fairness with your posts here. Opinions they may be and everyones entitled to them, but they really do fly in face of events, history and facts.
Fastnet was due to overall design for racing and lack of reserve in design - combined with horrendous weather that should have suspended the race. That's just one example of incorrect in your posts ... I'll let others 'blow the rest to bits" ...

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What absolute rubbish! Where is your evidence to support what you are saying? Where is this rash of keels falling off?

The reality is that fin keels are almost universal now, so it is not a question of "Bavaria owners defending their vessels".

Others have pointed out the advantages of fin keels. Most will dry out quite safely - however I would suggest that drying out for a scrub is very much a minority interest and if that is what turns you on you may be better off with a long keel

You give yourself away perhaps by using a racing boat as an example - this is rather like saying a front wheel drive Focus RS 2000 is a bit of a handful, therefore a front wheel drive Fiesta is to be avoided!

As to how practical a fin keeler is as a cruising yacht, I would guess that not only do 90% of new boats have them, but in the total population the numbers far outweigh other forms. Interesting that you rarely hear complaints from owners of modern boats, only sniping from people who don't have them, and often seem to have no experience of owning them.

BTW I also own an old wooden long keel cruising boat - have done for 30 years as well as the Bavaria, so am perhaps less biased than others!
 
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I don't sail anything like the Mary Rose but a very heavily built fibre glass bilge keeler.It sails a steady course with the tiller pegged & is not like those overblown dinghy's that set sail in the fastnet race.
There is a lot more to yacht design than just the keel but at least I have got the wits to realize it!

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With the utmost respect, had YOUR boat been caught in the thick of the Fastnet '79 storm I think you might have discovered it to be not the ideal safe platform you think it is! Imagination is a wonderful asset but the survival rate of a fleet of heavy built bilge keelers like yours in a Fastnet storm might be rather worse methinks, except that most of them would have given up and gone home much sooner simply because the only way they would go was sideways or backwards.
 
So you're telling us that fin keels are no good, but you have two on your boat?
Same as another person commented 'spade rudders are a problem'
A well designed fin keel or spade rudder is not a problem. The problems tend to come when the design work is not done properly or is not adhered to in manufacture. This applies equally to any design. I know a few people who have worked as laminators in the past, they will tell you all about the lack of quality control when a yard needs to get boats out the door to stave off bankruptcy.
Obviously the Mike Goldings of this world are sailing things built with less margin for safety, top level racing is like that. The keels that fall off open 60's are hardly like a fin keel anyway, generally being highly complex canting affairs.
Carbon fibre spade rudders earned a bad name in the 79 fastnet, but things have been learned about using modern materials in the last 30 years!
As for Bavarias, the sailing schools seem to keep buying them, using them 50 weeks a year, so they can't be all that fragile.
 
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I think you should stop for a moment and ponder why 50% to 80% of the ARC boats crossing the Atlantic each season are fin keelers and why zero percent have keels.

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Doh, I meant zero percent have *bilge* keels.
 
Damn. My boat has:

i) A fin keel
ii) An anchor
iii) Some seacocks, and
iv) A rudder.

According to this thread, I might as well scupper her now and save myself the heartbreak of watching her deteriorate and fail at some critical time in the future. All the happy sailing I might clock up in the meantime is just a pleasant distraction from the inevitable disaster that's heading my way. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
 
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