Resolution
Well-Known Member
This is the really key point, summed up in a nutshell. IF you want to cruise. (Racing needs to be more frequent and close to home, the grey skies matter less, etc etc).
Declining numbers of Sailors
- Thread starter ctelfer38
- Start date
This is the really key point, summed up in a nutshell. IF you want to cruise. (Racing needs to be more frequent and close to home, the grey skies matter less, etc etc).
bitbaltic
Well-Known Member
Yes gods and I thought I was doing well- just turned 40 and the youngest cruiser owner in the club probably by 20 years...
Seajet
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I can see your point, but it would never satisfy me; I enjoy the pride of ownership and working on MY boat, equipping her to my wishes.
Chartering is not cruising in the same sense as I do it, exploring from base; I'd consider it more ' ticking off foreign spots ' !
Dinghy racing as I mentioned at HISC - I also mentioned their numbers of cruiser / racers - is ' recreational sailing ' which was the point of the OP.
There are new cruiser members every year at our club, inc youngsters, as well as new dinghy cruisers and racers of all ages, so don't talk the situation into worse than it is...
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RobF
Well-Known Member
I think it boils down to having fewer people with disposable income and disposable time and a boat competing successfully against these two.
Average UK Salary is £27k (ish). If you want to keep your boat in a marina, then just under 25% of your salary will keep your boat in a South Coast marina. Yup, 3 months work to park a boat. The boats have become bigger which means they are more expensive to buy and maintain. They are also harder to handle and cost more to fix when they get dinged. There's a lot to be said in buying a smaller boat, but a 25footer is now deemed to be pretty small and at the entry level - 25 years ago it was an average size. People have got used to a slightly better standard of living, which is why you see a lot more caravans and a lot less tents in campsites (although this might be just my perception). The amount of time that men are expected to be with their children has also increased (again, my perception) which means they can't go down to the golf club / sailing club etc on a frequent basis without getting a (well-deserved) grumble.
There might also be a case of living in a city where you are likely to have a high disposable income may be incompatible with living close enough to a marina to get maximum value out of a boat.
Average UK Salary is £27k (ish). If you want to keep your boat in a marina, then just under 25% of your salary will keep your boat in a South Coast marina. Yup, 3 months work to park a boat. The boats have become bigger which means they are more expensive to buy and maintain. They are also harder to handle and cost more to fix when they get dinged. There's a lot to be said in buying a smaller boat, but a 25footer is now deemed to be pretty small and at the entry level - 25 years ago it was an average size. People have got used to a slightly better standard of living, which is why you see a lot more caravans and a lot less tents in campsites (although this might be just my perception). The amount of time that men are expected to be with their children has also increased (again, my perception) which means they can't go down to the golf club / sailing club etc on a frequent basis without getting a (well-deserved) grumble.
There might also be a case of living in a city where you are likely to have a high disposable income may be incompatible with living close enough to a marina to get maximum value out of a boat.
Seajet
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Who needs a marina ?!
Yes one has to be making quite serious dosh to discount £4-12K PA instantly from one's earnings, but it simply isn't necessary to do it that way.
My half tide, soft mud mooring - the tidal restrictions are nothing like they may appear to those not used to such; the harbour bar, flood and ebb dictate travel, not the mooring - has loads of wildlife to peer at, and is 5 minutes leisurely row from the locked tender pen by the shore, 2 nice old pubs serving good food, a nature reserve, shoreside walks of miles, an excellent clubhouse, and club with hoist & winter storage for a fraction of marina fees - a lot friendlier too.
It's worked well for me for the last 4 decades, and if anything seems to be getting better with all the ' come try sailing ' welcoming ethos and rejuvenation at our and other neighbouring clubs nowadays.
Yes one has to be making quite serious dosh to discount £4-12K PA instantly from one's earnings, but it simply isn't necessary to do it that way.
My half tide, soft mud mooring - the tidal restrictions are nothing like they may appear to those not used to such; the harbour bar, flood and ebb dictate travel, not the mooring - has loads of wildlife to peer at, and is 5 minutes leisurely row from the locked tender pen by the shore, 2 nice old pubs serving good food, a nature reserve, shoreside walks of miles, an excellent clubhouse, and club with hoist & winter storage for a fraction of marina fees - a lot friendlier too.
It's worked well for me for the last 4 decades, and if anything seems to be getting better with all the ' come try sailing ' welcoming ethos and rejuvenation at our and other neighbouring clubs nowadays.
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Andrew E
Well-Known Member
Well I’m 27 and own a 26 foot Westerly. How rare is that?
Of course I would love a brand new 37 foot plumb bow AWB, but I don't have a spare 100k lying around. Nor do I have 4k per year to berth it. Anyway my trusty Westerly can do everything a 37 foot AWB can do. I've got a TV, gas, heating, oven, fridge, shore power, LED lights, WiFi etc. I dare say my saloon settee is more comfortable than what you get on a modern AWB anyway.
The younger generations need to stop listening to the boat marketeers and salesmen who are convincing people that they need to own 37 foot plus AWBs with huge swim platforms, oversized wheels and large cockpits to enjoy sailing. Rubbish, a family of 4 can easily enjoy sailing in a 25/26 foot boat.
Of course I would love a brand new 37 foot plumb bow AWB, but I don't have a spare 100k lying around. Nor do I have 4k per year to berth it. Anyway my trusty Westerly can do everything a 37 foot AWB can do. I've got a TV, gas, heating, oven, fridge, shore power, LED lights, WiFi etc. I dare say my saloon settee is more comfortable than what you get on a modern AWB anyway.
The younger generations need to stop listening to the boat marketeers and salesmen who are convincing people that they need to own 37 foot plus AWBs with huge swim platforms, oversized wheels and large cockpits to enjoy sailing. Rubbish, a family of 4 can easily enjoy sailing in a 25/26 foot boat.
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adwuk
Well-Known Member
^ Best post so far! I think of the miles we put on my Dad's Contessa 26. A really capable little boat that probably went further than most of the AWBs on the south coast. Buy one for how much these days? Maybe £6k and find a cheap club mooring to put it on. Then sailing becomes more accessible.
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RobF
Well-Known Member
There's a lot to be said for that, but boats which take to the ground as easily as the Anderson are getting fewer. My previous boat (Red Fox) was significantly cheaper to keep - than my current AWB. Shorter, so cheaper mooring fees and I could park her in an industrial estate on her trailer for 6 months a year for a few hundred quid. But I've got young family and a soft mud mooring (and a 20foot boat) doesn't really work for me.
Andrew E
Well-Known Member
I don't get the argument that sailing isn't accessible.
A second hand motorhome costs 20-30k minimum and has the same accommodation as a 6-10k 26 foot yacht.
A second hand motorhome costs 20-30k minimum and has the same accommodation as a 6-10k 26 foot yacht.
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Seajet
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I DO understand where you're coming from...
A youngish couple I know have 4 young children, and all seem happy on their A22 which even to me seems pushing it !
Then again as I remarked it's a ready-made Swallows and Amazons crew or two.
NEW boats which can take the ground certainly are thinning out, but there are some brilliant ' Pre-Loved ' ( !
) examples about; it takes a good cruising boat to outsail a Fulmar twin keeler, the Centaur continues to amaze people how well it will sail in the right hands, and my chum's Trident 24 - an example of a new cruiser to the club this year ( though the owner is a super experienced seaman - with an eye for a good boat ) has been a revelation to me; good seaworthy performance, no slouch - not as fast as an Anderson but much roomier at only 2' longer - a different approach but both work.There are also the Trapper 500/501 TK's, ditto Seawolf 26 & 30, maybe Caravela 22 & 25, SuperSeal 26, Tomahawk25's, E-Boats for young nutters, Shrimpers for older nutters...
Andrew E
Well-Known Member
I DO understand where you're coming from...
A youngish couple I know have 4 young children, and all seem happy on their A22 which even to me seems pushing it !
Then again as I remarked it's a ready-made Swallows and Amazons crew or two.
NEW boats which can take the ground certainly are thinning out, but there are some brilliant ' Pre-Loved ' ( !
There are also the Trapper 500/501 TK's, ditto Seawolf 26 & 30, maybe Caravela 22 & 25, SuperSeal 26, Tomahawk25's, E-Boats for young nutters, Shrimpers for older nutters...
No mention of the Griffon?? Will outsail a Centaur. Better keels. Better accommodation.
stranded
Well-Known Member
I DO understand where you're coming from...
A youngish couple I know have 4 young children, and all seem happy on their A22 which even to me seems pushing it !
Then again as I remarked it's a ready-made Swallows and Amazons crew or two.
NEW boats which can take the ground certainly are thinning out, but there are some brilliant ' Pre-Loved ' ( !
There are also the Trapper 500/501 TK's, ditto Seawolf 26 & 30, maybe Caravela 22 & 25, SuperSeal 26, Tomahawk25's, E-Boats for young nutters, Shrimpers for older nutters...
Your zeal is admirable Andy. But I really do think that as tastes have got more 'sophisticated' the number who are prepared to rough it on a small boat is diminishing rapidly. And by small I mean well over low-mid 20s or even 30s. When we got a share in a forty two in Croatia a few years ago, my wife and I were in heaven, and even daughter was happy enough, but when she brought three of her teenage (15ish) mates out to join us for a week it was clear that they considered that they were slumming it. Same with grown up mates now - first timers on our current, we think quite nice, 44fter are clearly surprised at how it is way more like caravanning than the luxurious existence they see on telly or the movies. There will always be adventurers and those who enjoy the simpler things, thank heavens, but to my mind they are increasingly exceptional.
Personally I am in the 'more room for the rest of us camp' overall, but love to see 'youngsters' out there when we do. For my part I am off to Wales this weekend to spend my 56th in an isolated treehouse with no electricity, running water or much else except a log burner. Should be one step closer to luxury than my 50th spent wild camping. Not many people get it though!
Seajet
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My Carter 30 looked posher then the A22 but in fact had short narrow berths, was lucky to sleep 4 in even tolerable comfort and had a cold shower one had to pump with one's foot while lathering one's hair.
The Sailing School boats I was on - Yamaha 33 & Gib Sea 42 - both had less privacy than my 22 and bloody noisy, battery sucking, eberspachers ( I have an Origo heater ).
I completely admit I went through a period - I have a long standing back injury - long story, aircraft related but nothing as exotic as ejection ! - when I thought the A22 for me was a goner - then I tried bigger boats again ( chum's ) and found just the same, so now as I am pushing 55 I'm ' Co-Drydramol Andy ' .
Fact is, I'm usually comfortable on deck, or lying flat below - BUT sitting at desks - like chart tables or this keyboard - is sometimes spiffing for hours - unfortunately for you lot - or seconds.
However I do contend there are many ways of going to sea other than via a marina, which are more involving and more fun.
The price is almost irrelavant, it's actually more enjoyable - but if one doesn't know a harbour's nooks & crannies well one has to do research - if anyone wants my honest take on what's going around the Eastern Solent, especially Chichester, PM me.
To re-iterate, other boats available which will take half tide mud moorings happily ( obviously in twin or lift keel form it there are options ) ;
Trapper 501/500
Seawolf 26 - 30
Centaur
Griffin
Konsort
FULMAR
Longbow etc
Sabre 27
Tomahawk 25
Some Kelts
SuperSeal26
Seal22
Seal Sinbad
Hurley 18
Hurley 20
Hurley 22
Hurley 24
Caravela 22
Caravela 25
Evolution 22
Evolution 25
Evolution 26
E-Boat for youngsters
Shrimper for crusties
Finesse 24 for woodworkers
Kinsman keelboat
Memory keelboat
LOADS more...
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Rivers & creeks
Well-Known Member
Agreed, our boat ownership size increased with each new child. Now there's three youngsters it's a three cabin 35 footer and it's only just big enough! Sure there are families with four on a 22 footer, just as there are families of four in a four man tent but they are rare, getting rarer and it's a great way of putting the kids off.
We bought a 16' project day boat so they'd get some actual sailing in - tweaking a 35' motorsailer isn't child's play.
So numbers of sailors are declining - which Marina does anyone know of with fire sale offers and lots of empty berths?
rwoofer
Well-Known Member
After 4 years on a club drying mooring I finally had to give it up. Getting to the boat wasn't too bad (pull out tender, load kit and row 100 yards), but the tide restrictions were impacting my enjoyment too much.
Getting conditions, tide timing for passage etc. with the times I could get off or return to the mooring only very rarely worked in my favour. Much of the time sailing was curtailed early, had to start late or I simply could not get to certain destinations because I could not catch the corresponding tide direction.
The other issue was that I got far more fouling on a mud mooring, which dramatically reduced boat speed after only a month or two on the mooring.
Now on a deep water pile mooring at 3 times the cost!
Seajet
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I don't think you can have been trying very hard; in my situation my mooring is an hour motoring - or if the wind has an unusual northerly component, sailing - from the entrance.
Only a mug tries to beat the full flood or ebb, at 3 hours before HW.
Boat is afloat at 3 hours before - or after HW so off I trundle towards the entrance - arrive 2 hours before HW at best, and tide outside starts going my way 1 hour before HW.
It works out coming back too.
Going in or out at LW is not great if there are significant waves, and most people time around HW Portsmouth anyway.
One thing where a lot of people get it wrong is in choice of tender; this takes quite careful consideration, it has to be light enough to handle without a hernia, but safe for family and kit - I travelled a long way to get mine.
I had various deep water moorings around Chichester and Portsmouth and hated them; a real pain re tender and car parking, and one needed a young lifebopat to be safe in such distant locations.
A thing people often overlook is that while a mooring may be deep water with the boat happily bobbing about, the tender access is completely tidal so one is just as restricted as a half tide mooring anyway !
Only a mug tries to beat the full flood or ebb, at 3 hours before HW.
Boat is afloat at 3 hours before - or after HW so off I trundle towards the entrance - arrive 2 hours before HW at best, and tide outside starts going my way 1 hour before HW.
It works out coming back too.
Going in or out at LW is not great if there are significant waves, and most people time around HW Portsmouth anyway.
One thing where a lot of people get it wrong is in choice of tender; this takes quite careful consideration, it has to be light enough to handle without a hernia, but safe for family and kit - I travelled a long way to get mine.
I had various deep water moorings around Chichester and Portsmouth and hated them; a real pain re tender and car parking, and one needed a young lifebopat to be safe in such distant locations.
A thing people often overlook is that while a mooring may be deep water with the boat happily bobbing about, the tender access is completely tidal so one is just as restricted as a half tide mooring anyway !
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JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
I think it depends very much on what sailing you want to do. I had a pontoon mooring at Kirkcudbright for years, but gave it up because it was just too restrictive. A combination of strong tides (especially on the ebb when Tongland Power Station is running at full chat), a huge tidal range and a shallow bar means that there are really only two options: sail around the harbour for a couple of hours at the top of the tide or (2) leave the river on the first half of the ebb, stay out at least twelve hours and then come back on the second half of the flood. Added to that I had a boat with a deep fin keel, which means there were no decent sheltered anchorages outside.
For some people those restrictions would have been fine, but they didn't work for me, so I split my sailing up. Longer trips start on a swinging mooring, two hours by car and half an hour by ferry from home. Day sails happen on a Drascombe Longboat on freshwater, ten minutes and a short row from home.
flaming
Well-Known Member
I've gone and joined the family firm, so you can assume that at my age my dad was earning roughly equivalent to what I am now.
At my age he bought a brand new boat, a Westerly Griffon. He also had a sports car, a young family and a nice family house. My mum wasn't working.
That same family house sold recently for nearly twice what my house cost us. We couldn't have bought it.
My wife earns about the same as me. We don't have kids.
I drive a second hand Golf.
Google tells me that the £14k dad spent on the Griffon in 1980 is £64k today. Even if there were loads of boats available new for £64k, the chances of me finding that sort of cash for something as frivolous as a boat is basically zero.
So that's the financial side.
Then there's the other side. Bear in mind that I'm speaking as someone who absolutely loves sailing. I sail most weekends in the summer, I dream about sailing. It's an obsession really, rather than a hobby.
Even if I had the money now, I would not buy a boat.
Here's the way I see it. Sailing is always going to be there. It's going to be a hobby that I can do a long time after my other obsession, skiing, has fallen victim to the ageing process. If I have spare money and extra holiday time now, I don't spend them sailing, I spend them skiing.
I'm not alone in this, most of my sailing friends have other hobbies (a lot of them are also skiers) and almost all of them are saying "I probably will own a boat at some point, but that's something I can do later in life. Right now I have other things to spend money on."
And I think that's very valid. The children of Baby Boomers were very lucky. We got introduced to all sorts of Hobbies by our parents.
And then if we're very honest, there's the bit about expectations. Dad had that Griffon until I was about 15. Then it became a 34 foot AWB. Then eventually a Dufour 40. That's the cruising boat I'm used to. If I scrimped and saved (and spent all my skiing holiday money on berthing, which isn't going to happen) I still would be a long way short of the sort of boat I'm used to cruising in. And the sort of cruising I might want to do is to invite friends to sail with us. That's probably better done on a charter boat...
Yes, I'm probably spoilt, I realise that. But I'm still never going to buy a 20something cruising boat.
At my age he bought a brand new boat, a Westerly Griffon. He also had a sports car, a young family and a nice family house. My mum wasn't working.
That same family house sold recently for nearly twice what my house cost us. We couldn't have bought it.
My wife earns about the same as me. We don't have kids.
I drive a second hand Golf.
Google tells me that the £14k dad spent on the Griffon in 1980 is £64k today. Even if there were loads of boats available new for £64k, the chances of me finding that sort of cash for something as frivolous as a boat is basically zero.
So that's the financial side.
Then there's the other side. Bear in mind that I'm speaking as someone who absolutely loves sailing. I sail most weekends in the summer, I dream about sailing. It's an obsession really, rather than a hobby.
Even if I had the money now, I would not buy a boat.
Here's the way I see it. Sailing is always going to be there. It's going to be a hobby that I can do a long time after my other obsession, skiing, has fallen victim to the ageing process. If I have spare money and extra holiday time now, I don't spend them sailing, I spend them skiing.
I'm not alone in this, most of my sailing friends have other hobbies (a lot of them are also skiers) and almost all of them are saying "I probably will own a boat at some point, but that's something I can do later in life. Right now I have other things to spend money on."
And I think that's very valid. The children of Baby Boomers were very lucky. We got introduced to all sorts of Hobbies by our parents.
And then if we're very honest, there's the bit about expectations. Dad had that Griffon until I was about 15. Then it became a 34 foot AWB. Then eventually a Dufour 40. That's the cruising boat I'm used to. If I scrimped and saved (and spent all my skiing holiday money on berthing, which isn't going to happen) I still would be a long way short of the sort of boat I'm used to cruising in. And the sort of cruising I might want to do is to invite friends to sail with us. That's probably better done on a charter boat...
Yes, I'm probably spoilt, I realise that. But I'm still never going to buy a 20something cruising boat.
mobeydick
Well-Known Member
Thus far, the thread has only mentioned sailing yachts. Has anybody any thoughts on motor boat usage? Judging by the SBS there seemed to be a higher % of motor boats than I have seen before, and I would guess there are more in marinas. If people are more cash rich/time poor, I would think the number of motor boat 'sailors' would be increasing. The Solent would still not seem busy (except at 'rush hours') as mobos spend less time in transit.
It would also fit in with the more modern/current approach of seeking instant gratification.
MD
It would also fit in with the more modern/current approach of seeking instant gratification.
MD
jamie N
Well-Known Member
It's a bit away from the OP's original topic, but Jumble Duck has got it absolutely correct for me. I was on a pontoon at Inverness Marina, which really was very good; but getting under Kessock Bridge with its >3kt tides, then an hour and a half to Chanonry Point and the really good sailing with the Dolphins, seals and superb scenery, just became a chore after a 30 minute drive to the marina. Anchored in Fortrose, I can walk and row to the boat in 15mins, I pay 1/8th of the amount, it's a 10 minute sail to the point, and the sailing club is terrific. With the exception of not being able to walk onto the boat, there're only positives for me.