Declining numbers of Sailors

[Seajet]

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=6475
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=200

There's 5Kgs in the displacement and the Anderson is carrying more than that in extra ballast.
They're actually very similar boats, but sheesh, have it your way, sub 22 for 25.

I know both boats, have you even seen an Anderson 22 ?

The Catalina / Jaguar 22 may be around the same length with a lift keel, that's it.

The Anderson has the ballast in a bulb on the lower end of the keel, where it does must good; the bulb is veed on top so when the keel is up, mud, weed & stones don't jam the keel.

The Catalina has a ballast stub on the hull - where it does least good - with a swing plate - vulnerable to wear on the plate and pivot.

The Anderson has a decent interior with separate loo & forecabin - the Cartalina is open plan.

The Anderson has the outboard in a well so the prop stays immersed - best option for this size boat as an inboard is too heavy and an expensive pain when old.

The Catalina again goes for the unthinking answer of sticking the outboard on a transom pad
.
More to the point, and above all else, I have seen two Catalina 22 lift keelers on shore, where the hull had sagged around the ballast stub like pudding - hardly in the same build class,

Next time you make bland assertions, don't do it with someone who built the subject 38 years ago and has known it ever since, discussing with original builders, a lot of owners and transat racers...:encouragement:

 

[Lucky Duck]

Another thread ruined

And another interesting thread has degenerated into a series of statements about the perceived virtues of one particular class of boat

 

[doug748]

Just to put some meat on the bones of the decline in yacht cruising, YM have reported that a survey found:

- A fall in participation from 315,000 in 2005 to 253,000 in 2015

- An ownership fall from 67,491 in 2010/12 to 58,110 in 2013/15 ( That is some drop!)

See here:

http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectio...vey_Market_Review_2013_Executive_Summary_.pdf

But dun moan at me or ask any questions because I have not read it.

 

[Seajet]

Re: Another thread ruined

And another interesting thread has degenerated into a series of statements about the perceived virtues of one particular class of boat

Well you like having a go on zero grounds, I'm sure you'd sit still when someone came up with a load of balls about your boat.

I have contributed a helluva lot more to this thread so far than you, I have suggested where any decline in sailing numbers can be addressed - all I have seen from you is carping.

So go on then, let's have a positive suggestion about sailing popularity and perception ?

 

[Lucky Duck]

Re: Another thread ruined

Well you like having a go on zero grounds, I'm sure you'd sit still when someone came up with a load of balls about your boat.

Well so far I understand that my sailing is ruined by carting around a load of joinery but paradoxically this doesn't contribute to our comfort onboard, but if have anything else to add then fill your boots...

 

[Blue Sunray]

Re: Another thread ruined

Well you like having a go on zero grounds, I'm sure you'd sit still when someone came up with a load of balls about your boat.

I have contributed a helluva lot more to this thread so far than you, I have suggested where any decline in sailing numbers can be addressed - all I have seen from you is carping.

So go on then, let's have a positive suggestion about sailing popularity and perception ?

:encouragement:

 

[Blue Sunray]

Re: Another thread ruined

Well so far I understand that my sailing is ruined by carting around a load of joinery but paradoxically this doesn't contribute to our comfort onboard, but if have anything else to add then fill your boots...

...and another interesting thread has degenerated into a series of statements about nothing very constructive.

 

[Poignard]

I used to fly from the Yorkshire Gliding Club at Sutton Bank. There is a public footpath on the cliff edge round the airfield, and on any vaguely nice (ie flyable) day there are plenty of walkers, many of whom are clearly interested by the gliders. Most pilots ignore them but I always made a point of going up to them, chatting, asking if they would like to see a glider and so on. I NEVER failed to sell a trial flight to at least one member of the group I was talking to, which was good for the club (in money and goodwill) and good for the sport (I hope - several said they would definitely join their local club as a result).

Far too many volunteer organisations are quite happy with decline, because it doesn't mean uncomfortable change, or new faces. They still grumble about lack of members, but at best they just want the money and at worst the grumble is a meaningless ritual. It sounds as if your club decided actually to do something about it, and showed what can be done. Congratulations!

Do you remember Henry Doktor, the Polish CFI?

 

[Saguday]

Really? Until you start getting into superyacht territory, all the UK marina pricing I've ever seen has been a fixed rate per metre. Except one where the fixed price was per foot (metric martyr? ) and one where the berths were divided into categories each with a fixed price, but the main difference between them was the length so it worked out to more or less the same thing.

No doubt there are some other exceptions, but they are exceptions. Price per metre per year is absolutely the norm.

Pete

Well sorry but that's complete twaddle.

First of all I never at any point said marinas don't charge by the meter (or foot). If you go back and read my posts a bit more carefully you'll see that the point I made was that they don't always charge *the same amount* per meter for all lengths of boat.

Take the marina we're wintering in, for example. It's part of the Premier group, so that covers at least 9 marinas all along the south coast. For all weekly and monthly rates the price per meter is organised into roughly 2 meter bands, increasing in price per meter as the LOA gets larger. The 2017 annual rates are similarly split into 2 meter bands, with a fixed rate below 6.5m and then 2m bands from 8m up to 18m if memory serves.

Other groups have different ideas, but for annual moorings usually have at least a minimum length rate around 6-7m, a middle 'mainstream' rate per meter and another higher band over 14m, or 16m, or nearly 20m if it's one of the 4 Dean and Reddyhof marinas. I don't have info for MDL, maybe someone could chip in about that. In Europe they often drive the price per meter up steeply over 12m, which is one reason we bought a 11.5m boat.

Not all do this of course. Bradwell on the east coast for example have a flat annual rate per meter for all (with a fixed minimum) but note that their weekly and monthly rates are all banded (again in 2m bands) with rates per meter increasing with length.

So I stand by my comment - larger boats can and do often *pay more per meter* in marinas than smaller boats.

 

[E39mad]

The original post mentions the Olympic successes getting people involved - well from the last Olympics we are going to become a nation of cyclists because there was no meaningful coverage of the sailing - just an ex winner bobbing about on the water before or after a race. There was no coverage of the actual racing with discussion upon tactics etc etc. The BBC however managed to waste hours in a velodrome between races talking about what colour the riders hair is going to be!!

 

[Saguday]

It was pretty frustrating, however having spent an enjoyable 2 week layover in Portland marina en route last month I have to say the level of junior sailing activity at the sailing centre there was exceptional and incredibly encouraging. Literally hundreds of dinghies out at the weekends in a whole range of classes. Great to see.

 

[thecommander]

Olympic sailing just isn't a dramatic sport to watch on TV, bit like Golf, Cricket and Snooker on the TV.

The Americas Cup have a done an excellent job in making sailing a TV spectacle though.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Do you remember Henry Doktor, the Polish CFI?

He was still around when I was a member there, but had been replaced by David ?. Mike ? was DCFI. Fantastic club. I did gold height in the Ka8 there, but alas without a barograph.

 

[JumbleDuck]

The original post mentions the Olympic successes getting people involved - well from the last Olympics we are going to become a nation of cyclists because there was no meaningful coverage of the sailing - just an ex winner bobbing about on the water before or after a race. There was no coverage of the actual racing with discussion upon tactics etc etc. The BBC however managed to waste hours in a velodrome between races talking about what colour the riders hair is going to be!!

I don't think there is any evidence that Olympic coverage or success has any effect whatsoever on mass participation in any sport. The idea that it might is a convenient fiction used by governing bodies when applying for sports council money.

 

[Seajet]

It was pretty frustrating, however having spent an enjoyable 2 week layover in Portland marina en route last month I have to say the level of junior sailing activity at the sailing centre there was exceptional and incredibly encouraging. Literally hundreds of dinghies out at the weekends in a whole range of classes. Great to see.

Hayling Island Sailing Club, at the mouth of Chichester Harbour, seemed to get a lot of dosh towards Olympic training; I don't know the details as it's not my thing, but the club was almost rebuilt featuring a space-age ' control tower ', and there are rows of parked RIB's going off into the distance !

They always seem busy at some sort of dinghy racing ( there are quite a lot of deep water moorings for cruiser / racers too ) - then again it has always been a busy, race oriented club.

So I'd imagine the Olympics must have brought some new blood into competetive sailing, from the very young upwards, ( hopefully with a knock-on effect of people taking to cruising too ) but I have no idea how many people that is in reality.

 

[savageseadog]

Dinghy sailing is not the same as yacht sailing (and owning)

 

[rotrax]

I have been watching this thread for its duration.

There is no doubt that sailing-like most other pastimes and sports-is in some decline.

When I was a young man motorbikes were my passion, to the excusion of all else.

I joined with a friend and we purchased a new 16 foot plywood rowing dinghy to which I attatched an almost new 40 plus Seagull. With this rig and our wives plus a picknic we explored the upper Thames and the K&A and Oxford canals.

After the kids grew up and Motorbike Racing wound down First Mate and I looked for a new pastime. After an adrenaline sport a round of Golf or a game of Bowls was not going to cook it.

So, we went on some enjoyable training courses and subsequently became boat owners.

The difference is, we consider ourselves to be travellers by water rather than purist sailors.

A 22 foot high quality small yacht like seajet suggests would be a non starter for us.

For the previous 45 years before sailing we have been driving long distances, sleeping in vans, tents and cheap hotels, doing the races and driving-often non stop-back across Europe to home. Roughing it-and in comparison to what accomadation we enjoy now an Anderson 22 would certainly be roughing it.

What would have been a dream at a younger age would not suit now. And as for spending any length of time on a 22 footer with two guests-well forget it.

We live on our boat every summer, travelling between 1000 and 1500 NM each summer. A certain level of comfort is essential, as is space. It costs, and we are aware that many could not afford what we own and sail.

We have, however, made serious sacrifices to own it and may have jepordised our future income.

So, to precis my thoughts on the matter, what suits one may not suit another. The cost of doing what you want can be as large or as little as you wish to make it.

We are among the younger end of the members of our sailing club-and I shall be 70 next May.

Sailors are getting older, boats are getting bigger.

As long as sailors get around a bar with a pint, merits of boats will be discussed, often with passion.

To put a motorcycling twist to it- the most important thing about a boat-any boat-is the nut on the tiller.................................

 

[[163233]]

Next time you make bland assertions, don't do it with someone who built the subject 38 years ago and has known it ever since, discussing with original builders, a lot of owners and transat racers...:encouragement:

I really don't give a fig one way or another about the virtues of an Andersons vs Catalinas or any other boat in that roughly 25' bracket. I made a comment about 25 footers being about the smallest practical cruiser and you went off on one taking a couple of feet as a personal slight. Then, ok, I found it funny so I wound you up a bit, for which I apologise.
There are loads of 21 & 22 footers I know nothing about. I don't even know how these boats PY's vary, I'm sure the A22 is radically superior.

But really the observation was about marina costs being very similar between very small boats vs modern AWB's, and that this cost differential puts people off getting into the sport in the first place damaging the marina's own future business when they have huge fixed costs from building the marina that they need to amortise over decades.

Many people have pointed out that I'm wrong about that too, with perhaps more convincing arguments.

 

[JumbleDuck]

But really the observation was about marina costs being very similar between very small boats vs modern AWB's, and that this cost differential puts people off getting into the sport in the first place damaging the marina's own future business when they have huge fixed costs from building the marina that they need to amortise over decades.

Many people have pointed out that I'm wrong about that too, with perhaps more convincing arguments.

I think you're fairly right about that. Although marinas do generally seem to work in bands, the difference per metre between bands isn't that much and in any case since "smaller" generally means "older" and therefore "cheaper", the annual cost of a marina as proportion of the value of the boat probably maxes out, on average, at somewhere around 24 - 26'. You can get plenty of nice yachts in that size bracket for under £5k but you'll be lucky to park it on a pontoon for under £2k

And, of course, if you are resigned to spending £2k per annum, on sailing, why on earth would you throw it at a British marina when you could have a couple of weeks somewhere warm and nice (and a different somewhere warm and nice every year, if you want) by chartering. No insurance, no yard bills, no maintenance, no surveys ... and something a hell of a lot nicer to be on that a budget yacht.

 

[doris]

I don't think there is any evidence that Olympic coverage or success has any effect whatsoever on mass participation in any sport. The idea that it might is a convenient fiction used by governing bodies when applying for sports council money.

Certainly agree with that.