Dazed, confused and a tad upset.. Advice please.

BobMod

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I sent a set of survey findings into the broker for advice on what is significant and a way fwds.. All I really got back was... Well he isn't gonna move (without them asking the owner) and basically a real feeling of total unhelpfullness.. Is this common? Am I being unrealistic in my expectations? Ok the survey didn't condemn the hull but I have overstretched my immediate budget already and I am sure that "aligning engines and shaft" or "removing and refurbing the propellers isn't going to be cheap"

All I really need is some feedback.. Is this normal? Should I just shut up as this is a 27yr old boat as I have pretty much been told by the broker? Sorry.. I know it is a long post..

Survey Findings

-"Antifoul is spent" Sand down and Antifoul
-"Voids detected around old hull repair" Further treatment will be necessary
-"The 40mm stainless steel shafts were in serviceable condition and ran true but the starboard side shaft was running slightly out of line through the stern tube." Check the alignment of the starboard side shaft and engine and re-align as necessary.
- The 3-bladed Turbine Bronze propellers were firmly secured with castellated nuts and split pins but the edges of the blades were chipped and slightly distorted and some dezincification was noted.
"1. Remove and refurbish the propellers.
2. Check the earth bonding wires and the 240volt supply to determine the reason for the dezincification."
- a gouge (70mm in length) out of the starboard stern quarter, approximately 0.5m forward of the transom, in the white section. This penetrated through to the matting below. "Repair the gouge and deeper scratches and then touch in the paintwork where
necessary."
- Water in Keel section To be investigated
- The interior lights were tested and the port side bulkhead light was operative but the starboard light was only partially operative. Repair the faulty lights
- The extractor fan mounted on the bulkhead was tested and found to be inoperative. Repair the extractor fan.
- The toilet compartment was fitted with an electric Waterflush toilet and a small hand basin. The toilet was tested and the motor was operative but the flush appeared faulty. Check the flush on the toilet.
- The instruments were switch tested and found to be operative apart from the anchor light, blower, horn and spotlight. There was also an unlabelled switch on the console. The reason for this was unknown. Repair the faulty electrical equipment.
- The Raytheon RL70 Plotter was switch tested and appeared operative but there was no signal for the Radar. Investigate and fix
- There was a two way switch in the starboard side locker. The reason for this was unknown. What is this for?
- The aluminium water tank was well installed and no leaks were evident from the unit but there was a hole in the top of the tank which had been filled with a screw. Investigate the reason for the hole and screw
- The steering ram was firmly mounted to the transom and the steering arms and tie bar were firmly secured but a slight oil leak was noted from the steering ram. Rectify the oil leaks on the steering ram.
- The hydraulic trimtab motor was firmly mounted on the bearer. This was operative but had a slight oil leak. Rectify the oil leaks trimtab motor.
- The stern glands were well adjusted and no leaks were evident but the greasers were low on grease. Top up the greasers for the stern glands.
- The wiring for the windlass was poorly secured and running through the cabin above the berth and not through the bilge area. Run the wiring correctly
- the port side seacock was split and cracked. Replace the engine seacocks and
- The starboard side seacock was also considered suspect as these had suffered from frost damage. Replace the engine seacocks and
- The outlet toilet seacock (ballcock type) was mounted on the port side. This was seized. Free off or replace the toilet seacock.
- There was a battery box on the port side. This was sealed and no access was available to the batteries. Why?
- There was a smell of diesel on entering the craft. The reason for this could not be confirmed at this time and required investigation.Diesel was also found mixed with water in the engine bilges Check the engines for leaks (diesel).

"There were obviously a few other defects but these were mainly of a cosmetic or service nature apart from the damaged propellers, the oil leaks on the steering and trim tab motor, the electrical faults and the diesel leaks. If the above recommendations are carried out, the craft should continue to give good service."

I was informed that the craft held a current Boat Safety Certificate valid until 2012 but this was not available for inspection at this time. When will this be available?
 

BGW

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When I bought my first boat (30 years old at the time) there was a list of work required. - I negotiated a lower price based on this - only to find one of the jobs - replacing worn cutlass bearings, turned into needing two new shafts - and a lot more expensive that I was expecting.
With my second boat, I picked on the things that I could not live with, and agreed the sale price with the works completed - and these were inspected by the surveyor before the sale was complete.
This was a much more worry free way for me to buy the boat and I got exactly what I expected.
I would do the same here - agree to buy at his price, but only on condition that the work (that you want done) is done to an good standard.
Did you already negotiate a much lower price before survey? - If not, and he's not willing to budge I would withdraw and look around at other craft for a similar price.
You can still buy it if there is nothing better.
 

jfm

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That lot is £10k in a boatyard or maybe £4k if you are a tooled up diy-er and can do some yourself. If I were you I'd return his hardball stance with a similar hardball stance and say your offer, reduced by £x, stands, or it stnads with all the repairs done by seller, and if the answer is no you will look elsewhere. Any other buyer of this boat will find the same on survey because none of those faults is hidden deeply. There are plenty other boats for sale. Just imho
 

gjgm

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To my mind, almost all of this is acceptable- you are not buying a new boat after all.
The surveyor appears to be thorough in reporting all of his findings. Most of these surely you discovered for yourself anyway?
Personally:
-water in the keel section. Think I'd like to know the reason, at the least.
-a few small oil leaks.. well, there are some bills in there at some point, but on an old boat that might be a question of trying to reach a compromise.
- seacocks def. need sorting, and I would expect the seller to resolve those.
-smell of diesel, and diseel in bilge. again I would like to know why.

But most of it is par for buying a used boat. As per JFM's thoughts elsewhere- concentrate on the real issues that might cost some real money and dont mess about with the minor ones you can resolve for a fiver and a screwdriver.
Edit: you havent said where your offer was in relation to the asking price,and whether the asking price or agreed offer was in recognition or expectation of some faults. IE you cant claim twice.
 
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gjgm

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Wow JFM £10k? Jeesh.. I had maybe accounted for £1k - £1.5k.. What do you think are the big hitters? It is a Fjord 880 30Ft twin TAMD30a's....
I dont think £10k is on target, not unless you are expecting a substantially improved boat on return, and I dont see why the seller is providing that. You had an expectation of the boat when you made the offer. What of significance to your expectations is different post survey?
 
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fireball

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All I really need is some feedback.. Is this normal? Should I just shut up as this is a 27yr old boat as I have pretty much been told by the broker? Sorry.. I know it is a long post..
<snip>
If the sale particulars stated any of the noted defects (or in the case of the radar - not mentioned in the particulars as an item included) then you cannot expect any reduction in them.

I suspect that none of the defects were noted and the RL70 was listed. Whilst some of the defects are not material there are several more significant ones in there - just the replacement of the RL70 (if really broken) will set you back over £1k + fitting.

As to the cost of repair for the other items - way out of my area of knowledge - but I'd be pushing hard for a reduction on the major ones (the yard should be able to give an estimate - but probably need the consent of the broker to do so)...

Brokers aren't usually known to be helpful to buyers once an offer (and deposit) is in - so stand your ground and tell him to put your concerns and reduced offer (or work carried out) to the vendor.
 

BobMod

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GJGM

chipped and distorted Props
Starboard engine or shaft alignment
Wiring issues
Diesel leak - Investigate
Hydraulic leaks
Water in Keel - Investigate
Toilet Flush

This is my first boat.. I have no idea what any of these things mean or cost.. I am what I believe to be justifiably nervous.. If I hadn't commissioned that survey.. The boat could be underwater now as the seacock was cracked...

I dunno.. I like the boat and realise that ongoing prevetative maintenance is necessary.. I just don't want to start my first boat buy with massive bill for being ignorant.. I think I will learn alot from this boat but debt management isn't what I have in mind...
 

gjgm

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GJGM

chipped and distorted Props
Starboard engine or shaft alignment
Wiring issues
Diesel leak - Investigate
Hydraulic leaks
Water in Keel - Investigate
Toilet Flush

This is my first boat.. I have no idea what any of these things mean or cost.. I am what I believe to be justifiably nervous.. If I hadn't commissioned that survey.. The boat could be underwater now as the seacock was cracked...

I dunno.. I like the boat and realise that ongoing prevetative maintenance is necessary.. I just don't want to start my first boat buy with massive bill for being ignorant.. I think I will learn alot from this boat but debt management isn't what I have in mind...
Ha, well boating isnt ever going to be cheap, but of course it isnt supposed to make you cry !
Well, as always speak to the surveyor. Seems he is being diligent. Discuss the price offered, and ask what he thinks is reasonable/urgent/dangerous.
Hard to be specific without seeing things, which only he, and presumably you have seen.
 

Firefly625

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I guess its this one judging by the wiring in the forward berth which I guess
will be the windlass wiring as mentioned in survey... (edited bit) well actually just noticed lack of radar so this obviously is not the boat in question!!! interesting wiring in forward cabin though, perhaps all Fjords have windlass wiring similar!!)

http://www.thamesboatsales.co.uk/boat_detail.asp?return=latest&btsP=%C2%A319,950&marina=BY&ID=24419296&btpFN=24419296_2.JPG&pn=Technical

£10k costs have been mentioned, when that's 50% of the value of the boat you should walk away, but how much can you do yourself as jfm says a £4 budget with you (if you are capable) of doing much of the work could well be all that is needed to rectify all these issues and leave you with nice boat. I do agree with gjgm, a surveyor job is to point out every defect. Which ones are the show stoppers, well water in the keel, diesel leak's all need to be investigated just a little further before deciding to walk away or take the plunge. Certainly leaving an offer with the broker even if he is under the impression the seller will reject, would be the thing to do once you have sorted out the above.
 
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gjgm

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One more.. as you are new. Please please please understand that this is your money and in the end, your responsibility. Someone you are paying to provide a service owes you that service. You are not paying a bean to the broker, and while there are good brokers, his goal is to complete a sale for the seller. His advice might be excellent, or it might be worthless. Just dont rely on it without due consideration.
 

Chris_d

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To be honest everything on that list is probably normal for a Thames based boat, nearly every survey I have seen on an older boat reads the same and the surveyor is just covering himself by pointing out every possible defect and recommending its fixed. £20K for twin diesel shaft drive boat even 27 years old is bargain basement stuff so you have to be realistic, with the exception of the water in the keel there really isn't much there to negotiate a significant price reduction, all Thames boats will have dinged props, scratched gelcoat etc... an offer of £15-16K would be sensible then just spend the season gradualy bringing it up to spec.
 

jfm

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Wow JFM £10k? Jeesh.. I had maybe accounted for £1k - £1.5k.. What do you think are the big hitters? It is a Fjord 880 30Ft twin TAMD30a's....

I think boat yard labour is £40/hr +vat =£50
If this is all professionally fixed then the pricing could be as follows. Though, I don't think on a boat this vintage you can knock 10k off the price, which is why I said £x, for you to decide. But just as food for thought here is list...

-"Antifoul is spent" Sand down and Antifoul Nil price chip, known problem when you offered, but £800 to get done
-"Voids detected around old hull repair" Further treatment will be necessary £200
-"The 40mm stainless steel shafts were in serviceable condition and ran true but the starboard side shaft was running slightly out of line through the stern tube." Check the alignment of the starboard side shaft and engine and re-align as necessary. £200
- The 3-bladed Turbine Bronze propellers were firmly secured with castellated nuts and split pins but the edges of the blades were chipped and slightly distorted and some dezincification was noted.
"1. Remove and refurbish the propellers. £600
2. Check the earth bonding wires and the 240volt supply to determine the reason for the dezincification." £100
- a gouge (70mm in length) out of the starboard stern quarter, approximately 0.5m forward of the transom, in the white section. This penetrated through to the matting below. "Repair the gouge and deeper scratches and then touch in the paintwork where
necessary." £200
- Water in Keel section To be investigated ???£500
- The interior lights were tested and the port side bulkhead light was operative but the starboard light was only partially operative. Repair the faulty lights £100
- The extractor fan mounted on the bulkhead was tested and found to be inoperative. Repair the extractor fan. £50
- The toilet compartment was fitted with an electric Waterflush toilet and a small hand basin. The toilet was tested and the motor was operative but the flush appeared faulty. Check the flush on the toilet. £300
- The instruments were switch tested and found to be operative apart from the anchor light, blower, horn and spotlight. There was also an unlabelled switch on the console. The reason for this was unknown. Repair the faulty electrical equipment. £400
- The Raytheon RL70 Plotter was switch tested and appeared operative but there was no signal for the Radar. Investigate and fix £1000
- There was a two way switch in the starboard side locker. The reason for this was unknown. What is this for?
- The aluminium water tank was well installed and no leaks were evident from the unit but there was a hole in the top of the tank which had been filled with a screw. Investigate the reason for the hole and screw
- The steering ram was firmly mounted to the transom and the steering arms and tie bar were firmly secured but a slight oil leak was noted from the steering ram. Rectify the oil leaks on the steering ram. £400
- The hydraulic trimtab motor was firmly mounted on the bearer. This was operative but had a slight oil leak. Rectify the oil leaks trimtab motor. £300
- The stern glands were well adjusted and no leaks were evident but the greasers were low on grease. Top up the greasers for the stern glands.
- The wiring for the windlass was poorly secured and running through the cabin above the berth and not through the bilge area. Run the wiring correctly £300
- the port side seacock was split and cracked. Replace the engine seacocks and
- The starboard side seacock was also considered suspect as these had suffered from frost damage. Replace the engine seacocks and £600 both sides
- The outlet toilet seacock (ballcock type) was mounted on the port side. This was seized. Free off or replace the toilet seacock. £100
- There was a battery box on the port side. This was sealed and no access was available to the batteries. Why?
- There was a smell of diesel on entering the craft. The reason for this could not be confirmed at this time and required investigation.Diesel was also found mixed with water in the engine bilges Check the engines for leaks (diesel). £200


Plus lift out hard standing and lift in £750

That comes to £7100. I fully accept that the boat can be used without all these repairs of OP wishes to. I was merely pricing up the surveyor's shopping list. Maybe £3k price chip is about right.
 

gjgm

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Fair enough JFM. Whether he needs a plotter never mind radar in the upper reaches of the Thames is questionable. A brand new manual loo is £100. A seal might go tomorrow,might last for years. Without some concrete evidence of a severe problem, I am not convinced a seller is going to drop too much just bcz the new owner wants non urgent matters fixed to his personal level of satisfaction.
£3k might be a starting point, but I expect a rather optimistic one.
A La Gludy thread, you have to get down to the crucials.
 

jfm

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Fair enough JFM. Whether he needs a plotter never mind radar in the upper reaches of the Thames is questionable. A brand new manual loo is £100. A seal might go tomorrow,might last for years. Without some concrete evidence of a severe problem, I am not convinced a seller is going to drop too much just bcz the new owner wants non urgent matters fixed to his personal level of satisfaction.
£3k might be a starting point, but I expect a rather optimistic one.
A La Gludy thread, you have to get down to the crucials.

Yup agreed. Hey, it was a bit of a how long is a piece of string question to begin with :)

That reminds me, I have a brand new 24v electric loo for sale here :)
 

BobMod

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JFM

LMAO...

Right.. All thank you for setting a little perspective.. I am calmer now although GJGM I hardly think concern over hydraulic leaks, Diesel leaks and a siezed open seacock are personal levels of satisfaction but I do see your point on the others...

All

Thanks again.. You will find that I do learn fast but I have to ask a lot of stupid questions to get there..... You will also find that if I do buy the boat, there will always be cold beers and tonic in the fridge... Gin in the freezer and lemons in a net above the fridge... :cool:
 

Ripster

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Looking at some of those items, JFMs target suggestion of about 10k seems reasonable. Don't forget once you buy it - the whole thing is down to you. When (if) you buy the boat there WILL be other things which even the surveyor does not pick up that you will want to do, so allow 15% contingency on budget. As has been said, boating is not cheap but equally it should not become a nightmare, so if you are uncomfortable walk away.
 

rafiki_

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I always think with boats, "If in doubt, walk away". There are usually several others available.

I also think buying a boat is a bit like a house, the one you really want is 50% over budget. So if you add JFM's £10k to your purchase price, you are looking at a £30k boat. However, when you find one, it may still need £3k-£5k on stuff on top.

If you really want the boat in question, then go for it. Boat buying is not a rational decision.
 

oldgit

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A crock ?

The other thing not mentioned is the time it is going to take to sort this.IMHO without actually seeing this boat it sounds like a blimming project.
Your first season and most probably the next,are going to be spent,not blissfully cruising up and down past Hampton Court in glorious July sunshine but either... depending on your finances

A.Up to your elbows in **** trying to figuire out how the boat comes to bits in order to find some mysterious wires which disappear into a deisel soaked bilge.
or
B.Wondering why the bloke who faithfully promised six weeks ago to come and sort things has not turned up yet "again".

Perhaps look elsewhere,somewhere out there is a much loved boat which has been carefully looked after by some old boy.For every boat I have bought there were 20 piles of neglected *hite to be waded through.Keep looking,your boat is out there,you have merely got to find it.
Ps.I reckon JFM is very close in his cost to fix estimate,a new stainless shaft alone from Vetus is around £500.
Bid around £15k and wait and see ?
 
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