Day Skipper.

[l'escargot]

Day Skipper course/exam doesn't teach you to handle any specific conditions - it teaches the basics and also teaches you to assess the conditions and whether or not you, your craft and your crew will be capable of coping with them (at least it's supposed to). The trouble is you can usually gradually work up to more extreme weather conditions, etc. (with the odd grey hair moment along they way). If you've passed a course in the Med though you could be a very competent sailor experienced with some very nasty seas and winds, able to cope with Med moors, etc. and then come over to Poole Harbour. You then go out on a glorious sunny day in a F3 and quickly get added to the list of people that have ended up under the chain ferry.

Likewise you could spend a week in perfect weather on the south coast perfecting your ferry glide and then head out to the Med and get bounced off every boat in the harbour by katabatic winds

Hopefully a responsible person interested in getting the best out of the course, rather than just a piece of paper, would (or should) choose to do it in the waters they will do most of their boating in. They can then get a broad knowledge and some practical experience of specific skills applicable to them and made aware that if they ever go somewhere else they may encounter things they have not experienced...

 

[superheat6k]

I followed up this thread with an enquiry to the RYA about watering down the Day Skipper requirement to understand and learn about tides as part of Day Skipper courses. The response I received says ...

I am not sure where you have received your information but I am pleased to say it is not correct. The RYA has no intention of removing the need for tidal tuition from any courses. In fact, the opposite is true. Those training centres in area that do not have tidal waters in their general area will now be required to teach tides (at least in theory) from 1st of January 2017. RYA schools that are in areas currently designated tidal will continue teaching exactly what they have been delivering for decades.

The net effect is that the many thousands of people who went through “non – tidal” RYA schools completely oblivious to the fact that such a thing as tide existed will now learn at least the theory of tides and how to accommodate for them and calculate them.

I do hope this has cleared up any confusion. This is the information that has been provided both to RYA recognised training centres and to the yachting press.

...

 

[Montemar]

Try ignoring the tide off Portland Bill!
Perhaps RYA are trying to invent yet another course. It seems their courses increasingly overlap.
For me windage is my biggest problem, I keep clear of races and have enough power to not worry overmuch about tidal flows however tidal heights are very important. How can one cope with pilotage without tidal knowledge?
Incidentally I have just done the shorebased Daykipper and the tidal stuff was very interesting as was the whole course. Surely RYA cannot completely ignore it?
Have I missed something here?

 

[vjmehra]

I followed up this thread with an enquiry to the RYA about watering down the Day Skipper requirement to understand and learn about tides as part of Day Skipper courses. The response I received says ...

I am not sure where you have received your information but I am pleased to say it is not correct. The RYA has no intention of removing the need for tidal tuition from any courses. In fact, the opposite is true. Those training centres in area that do not have tidal waters in their general area will now be required to teach tides (at least in theory) from 1st of January 2017. RYA schools that are in areas currently designated tidal will continue teaching exactly what they have been delivering for decades.

The net effect is that the many thousands of people who went through “non – tidal” RYA schools completely oblivious to the fact that such a thing as tide existed will now learn at least the theory of tides and how to accommodate for them and calculate them.

I do hope this has cleared up any confusion. This is the information that has been provided both to RYA recognised training centres and to the yachting press.

...

That was always my understanding of the new structure, however is the distinction not now that the RYA does not perceive a difference between the 2 courses?

So for example, I did my (non-tidal) Day Skipper in Turkey in (I think) 2011, I then did a tidal conversion a year later (so I think that was in 2012).

Under the new structure, having done the course in Turkey, the RYA would have deemed me to be of the same skill level as if I had done the tidal course as well, which was clearly not the case.

Assuming I've understood things correctly, it all seems very odd as the theory course always included tides anyway!

 

[Solitaire]

The trouble is that my original post got debauched! People put their own spin on it! Like most things on here! My question was based on how many would now consider doing the courses in the warm! I teach a lot if people who take their boats to the med and I tell them while tide is not such an issue wind can be. I even try and simulate med style mooring.

The tidal syllabus has to be taught! Either practically or theoretically! My view is that it will impact more on UK/tidal based centres.

 

[superheat6k]

The trouble is that my original post got debauched! People put their own spin on it! Like most things on here! My question was based on how many would now consider doing the courses in the warm! I teach a lot if people who take their boats to the med and I tell them while tide is not such an issue wind can be. I even try and simulate med style mooring.

The tidal syllabus has to be taught! Either practically or theoretically! My view is that it will impact more on UK/tidal based centres.

Whereas I appreciate the second part of your thread was about training in warmer climes, the inference from your opening sentence of your opening post was that the RYA had dumbed down, which was both the nub of the question I asked them, and IMHO why the thread has developed as it has. However, clearly your opening statement was very concise and if correct overrides the requirement for a tidal endorsement, which to a large extent might well negate their response to me. I have requested they clarify re your opening comment.

Note sure, as this was the leading part of your thread, anyone here has 'debauched' your thread.

 

[l'escargot]

That was always my understanding of the new structure, however is the distinction not now that the RYA does not perceive a difference between the 2 courses?

So for example, I did my (non-tidal) Day Skipper in Turkey in (I think) 2011, I then did a tidal conversion a year later (so I think that was in 2012).

Under the new structure, having done the course in Turkey, the RYA would have deemed me to be of the same skill level as if I had done the tidal course as well, which was clearly not the case.

Assuming I've understood things correctly, it all seems very odd as the theory course always included tides anyway!

So (previously) was the theory of tides not even in the syllabus on the non tidal course?

 

[MapisM]

Note sure, as this was the leading part of your thread, anyone here has 'debauched' your thread.

Debauching threads is the fun part of the forum, what's wrong with that!?
And I would agreed that this is by far one of the less debauched anyway, at least so far.

Anyway, if I should seriously answer Solitaire question, if given the choice (and assuming that the cost differences - if any - are not a factor) it's a no brainer choice, imho.
I suppose that also teachers would rather work "somewhere warm", rather than "somewhere cold", wouldn't they?

 

[superheat6k]

So (previously) was the theory of tides not even in the syllabus on the non tidal course?

From the answer I received from the RYA, apparently not, but now it will be.

 

[MapisM]

So (previously) was the theory of tides not even in the syllabus on the non tidal course?

Yep, that's a bit surprising.
Here in IT, a license is mandatory for anything afloat with more than 40hp, and not only tide and current (believe it or not) is one chapter of the program, but indeed questions about this topic are a rather common occurrence during the exam.

 

[vjmehra]

So (previously) was the theory of tides not even in the syllabus on the non tidal course?

My instructor definitely covered tides to some degree as I specifically remember him saying that the Med was actually tidal, just the tides were very small!

So I suspect it was always there tucked away, but perhaps not any great weight given too it.

I think however the practical differences between Med sailing and UK sailing are quite great, especially the mooring. That said you can argue that perhaps Med mooring is a skill itself, no less worthy than mooring in a tough UK tidal situation!

 

[l'escargot]

My instructor definitely covered tides to some degree as I specifically remember him saying that the Med was actually tidal, just the tides were very small!

So I suspect it was always there tucked away, but perhaps not any great weight given too it.

I think however the practical differences between Med sailing and UK sailing are quite great, especially the mooring. That said you can argue that perhaps Med mooring is a skill itself, no less worthy than mooring in a tough UK tidal situation!

That's where I was coming from. I was always under the impression that the syllabus was the same for both tidal and non tidal, just that it wasn't possible to put the tidal knowledge into practice and the emphasis would be on more localised skills. There are always going to be differences in the practical aspects wherever you do it, even between schools in tidal areas. The only thing that can actually be consistent across all schools is the theory.

 

[westernman]

My instructor definitely covered tides to some degree as I specifically remember him saying that the Med was actually tidal, just the tides were very small!

Tide predictions for the central Med area:-
http://www.eurometeo.com/english/tides

 

[grumpy_o_g]

If ever do any further than Day Skipper I would much prefer to do it in the warm, yes. If you can find somewhere tidal and warm then I would encourage others to do a Day Skipper there too, but not if there were no tides and they were going to be sailing in the UK much. In fairness I am a raggie though so tides are a bit more important to me. There are times you can ignore the tide in MoBo but it's not very often you can do that as a raggie...

 

[superheat6k]

If ever do any further than Day Skipper I would much prefer to do it in the warm, yes. If you can find somewhere tidal and warm then I would encourage others to do a Day Skipper there too, but not if there were no tides and they were going to be sailing in the UK much. In fairness I am a raggie though so tides are a bit more important to me. There are times you can ignore the tide in MoBo but it's not very often you can do that as a raggie...

If you cruise at 25 knots then perhaps you can ignore the tide, but tide affects motorboats as much as yachts when berthing.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

If you cruise at 25 knots then perhaps you can ignore the tide, but tide affects motorboats as much as yachts when berthing.

Indeed - hence my qualification as to there only being occasions when you can ignore it.