Day Skipper or Coastal Skipper

[Reverend Ludd]

Uber

Not saying what you were intending to do just how it came across.
No problems from me

 

[Ubergeekian]

I think it is really useful for aspiring yachtmasters to have crew on their boat who are less competent and therefore require better direction / skippering. It is also useful for Day Skippers with higher intentions to see how the Yachtmaster course and examination work. Clearly you wouldn't want too many on the course.

Having complete numpties on board would doubtless be a pain, but I can imagine situations in which having very experienced sailors as crew for the yachtmaster exam could make life difficult for both examiner and candidate. I've stooged for teaching candidates in other practical exams before now, and it's awful hard sometimes to behave, realistically, as a real student might. There are temptations both to make things go too smoothly and to introduce unrealistic complications.

 

[jimi]

I am quite deliberately not trying to change your advice, just make it clear and with the correct terminology. I don't want to take credit for your ideas, though I agree with most of them.



Well, you first said Definitely do the course preparation weeks for CS & YM and then you said my recommedation was to do the same practical course again when going for YM offshore. Since the preparatory course for the Yachtmaster Coastal (formerly Coastal Skipper) exam is the Coastal Skipper one, it seemed clear to me that you were recommending people to do that course twice. Did I get that wrong?

I'd be genuinely interested to know if you think that a second go at the Coastal Skipper practical course is a better preparation for Yachtmaster Offshore than the bespoke preparation weeks offered by many sea schools, and if so why you think so. Better to have more structure, perhaps?

you got it wrong, my friend, and I explained why earlier but you were too busy having a pop to read "As YM offshore candidate the standard expected and trained for will be higher than Coastal Skipper (now known as Yachtmaster Coastal)"
to read and understand.

 

[auditdata]

Such a same as there is some interesting information and advice in this and the previous thread. Like most things in life I can see both sides. I don't think the temperature needs to be raised quite so high as both the OP and the commentators have valid points. So instead of worrying about the acronyms and titles lets get back to the point.
My experience is as follows and I am nervous about using the wrong titles but I'll have a go. I did the competent crew with no previous sailing experience and very soon after the day skipper practical. I am absolutely certain I would not have been competent to take a yacht out with so little experience but I think the spirit of the RYA is to encourage rather that discourage. If my instructor had "failed" (I guess to be accurate "failed to issue a course completion certificate") me then I might have given up.
Instead after more sailing with friends I did the day skipper course again and at different school. I remember well the instructor asking me at the end of the course "Did I feel competent to take this yacht out of this port and bring it back?" Actually I did so felt I was just at about the right standard to be awarded the certificate.
Five or six years later I did the Coastal Skipper Course (Checked my G15/93 and it was called RYA/DoT Coastal Skipper Tidal Practical Sailing Course) and then soon after the Coastal Skipper Exam (I hope it is OK to call it that) for the Certificate of Competence RYA/MCA Coastal Skipper. It was lucky that my best mate who had been sailing for many years was also examined at the same time but for the Yachtmaster version. What I learnt was that we did exactly the same exercises but the speed of decision making and tolerance of mistakes was completely different. I knew I was not ready for the higher skill level needed for the Yachtmaster at that stage.
5 years later and 160 days and 4700 miles logged I just about feel ready to do the Yachtmaster prep that will help me take the exam.
What I have learnt is that you are never completely competent as this sailing lark is extremely challenging if you are to experience it to the full. So my advice, forgetting the tautology, is to take it slowly and get as much experience as you can in different areas, with different people and on different boats. There seems to be no reason to rush the fences.
Let peace on this thread reign... Please
Clive

 

[Ubergeekian]

I personally didn't take the new Coastal Yachtmaster exam because:-

a) There is a fairly hefty charge for the exam
b) I wanted to learn rather than collect gongs

Course completion certificate is fine for me.

At the organisation for which I work we find that a lot of students - can be anything up to 50% - take our courses but don't bother with the final exams. They just want to know stuff, and aren't bothered about a pass certificate.

Unfortunately, the government funds us on the basis of the number of students who sit the exams ...

 

[Ubergeekian]

Uber

Not saying what you were intending to do just who it came across.
No problems from me

On rereading I can see a couple of my posts which may not have come across as I meant them. I have therefore deleted them.

 

[Ubergeekian]

you got it wrong, my friend, and I explained why earlier but you were too busy having a pop to read "As YM offshore candidate the standard expected and trained for will be higher than Coastal Skipper (now known as Yachtmaster Coastal)"
to read and understand.

OK, now I am really confused. You wrote my recommedation was to do the same practical course again. Did you or did you not mean that you recommend a candidate for Yachtmaster Offshore to do the Coastal Skipper practical course again? If not, what same practical course were you recommending be done again?

Please note that I am not trying to take issue with your advice, just work out what it is!

 

[jimi]

Hi, Ubergeekian, you seem to be the only person seeking clarification on this. I think I've actually answerered this several times but if other posters appear to have similar comprehension problems I'll take the trouble to spell it out.


OTOH if , as you imply , you are actively engaged in the RYA training proram already you should really know exactly what I am saying and perhaps you could maybe construct an erm constructive post? or perhaps your insinuations flatter to deceive? Prove me wrong!

 

[Ubergeekian]

Hi, Ubergeekian, you seem to be the only person seeking clarification on this. I think I've actually answerered this several times but if other posters appear to have similar comprehension problems I'll take the trouble to spell it out.

I really, truly would like to know what you meant, and I really, truly don' understand. I thought I did, but you've said I got my (4) wrong so clearly I don't. I would be very glad of enlightenment. To summarise my confusion, what practical course to you recommend people do twice and at what stages in their training.

OTOH if , as you imply , you are actively engaged in the RYA training proram already you should really know exactly what I am saying and perhaps you could maybe construct an erm constructive post? or perhaps your insinuations flatter to deceive? Prove me wrong!

Nope, no RYA connections at all, though I taught the Day Skipper theory in Oxfordshire evening classes many (20) years ago. I'm interested in the scheme, not least because I work in education, but I have no direct involvement and no practical sailing qualification higher than Elementary Day Boat, though it does have the Tidal Endorsement!

 

[jimi]

OK as you seem to have gone a bit quiet.. my understanding is:

The 5 day prep course for YM coastal & offshore if completed give a course completion certificate of Coastal Skipper (no change from 8 &10 years ago).

You initially declare whether you are a YM offshore or Coastal candidate the instructor's will instruct and assess on the desired standard and then tell you if he/she thinks yer up to it.

You then sit the relevant exam.

so if YM offshore after coastal you do the same course but with a different standard as yer prep week.

Now tell me if things have changed and the process I went through is no longer in place cos the RYA says everything is exactly the same except the name of the Coastal Skipper exam.

 

[RobF]

When I was doing my weeks, they werebilled as separate weeks. One was the RYA Coastal Skipper course, the other was a 5 day prep course for the MCA Exam. This makes sense to me as they are billed as different weeks for different purposes (i.e. complete the syllabus to a competent standard vs identify weaknesses that might prevent a candidate passing the exam and practising these). I can't deny that there was a lot of common material between the two - although we covered more miles in the RYA course and spent more time doing drills and practices for the exam prep week.

I have a feeling that most candidates who complete the exam prep week will receive the RYA course completion certificate - I guess the instructors ensure that the syllabus has been completed to a sufficient standard and are therefore happy to award this. However, I did not receive a completion certificate for my prep week as I was doing the exam (I the sailing school may have given me a completion certificate if I failed my exam).

If it's any help, I did my RYA Coastal Skipper in 2006 and my MCA Coastal Skipper in 2009 - so fairly recent.

 

[jimi]

Hi Rob, I did my CS in 2001 & my YM Offshore in 2003 in separate schools. Both schools only had CS or YM candidates (yikes I'll get shot for saying CS but that's wot it woz at the time) on the same boat and adopted the approach I described. Perhaps other sailing schools adopt a different approach, it would be good if people could addto and supplement this knowledge/experience with their own knowledge /experience?

 

[jimi]

At the organisation for which I work we find that a lot of students - can be anything up to 50% - take our courses but don't bother with the final exams. They just want to know stuff, and aren't bothered about a pass certificate.

Unfortunately, the government funds us on the basis of the number of students who sit the exams ...

My take on that would be that if only 50% of your students feel confident enough to sit an exam after your tuition, you should reassess your educational processes.

I suspect my employers would'nt be too happy if i said " I've worked all week, but i'm not sure if I've actually acheived anything!"

 

[Reverend Ludd]

My friend who I have know for 30yrs or so, is one of those chaps.
He did really well at Uni but didn't sit his exams.
We both joined a scuba club and learned to dive, I got my certificate but he didn't as he decided he didn't want to go anymore.
Then the same thing happened when we learned to fly (PPL) he didn't do the final handling test. No amount of persuasion would change his mind from any of these actions, rather in-actions.

 

[Ubergeekian]

OK as you seem to have gone a bit quiet.. my understanding is:

The 5 day prep course for YM coastal & offshore if completed give a course completion certificate of Coastal Skipper (no change from 8 &10 years ago).

You initially declare whether you are a YM offshore or Coastal candidate the instructor's will instruct and assess on the desired standard and then tell you if he/she thinks yer up to it.

Thanks. As far as I can see, the RYA doesn't mention the Coastal Skipper practical course as a preparation for the Yachtmaster Offshore exam - instead it suggests that you take a sailing school preparation week, which as I understand it is a week of bespoke tuition. That's not to say that the CS Practical would be a bad preparation, so I'd be interested to know how you, and others, weigh it up against a preparation week. Or would you suggest doing both?

 

[Ubergeekian]

My take on that would be that if only 50% of your students feel confident enough to sit an exam after your tuition, you should reassess your educational processes.

I suspect my employers would'nt be too happy if i said " I've worked all week, but i'm not sure if I've actually acheived anything!"

It's not so much confidence, I think, more utility. And an aversion to exams in general, which I admit I share myself. So, for example, we get people who want to learn Java programming, so they take a Java programming course - but they don't want a qualification, so they don't bother with the exam. It's by no means only the weaker students who do this.

If you've ever been near evening classes you'll know that some time ago (15 years?) the government withdrew funding from them unless they were credit bearing. This meant that popular hobby courses (flower arranging, family history, car maintenance) suddenly had to be assessed. That put off a lot of the people doing them and enrolments collapsed. RYA Theory courses escaped because the exam at the end meant they counted!

 

[jimi]

Thanks. As far as I can see, the RYA doesn't mention the Coastal Skipper practical course as a preparation for the Yachtmaster Offshore exam - instead it suggests that you take a sailing school preparation week, which as I understand it is a week of bespoke tuition. That's not to say that the CS Practical would be a bad preparation, so I'd be interested to know how you, and others, weigh it up against a preparation week. Or would you suggest doing both?

Tell you what, Mr U, why don't you either:

1) phone up a sailing school and ask them
2) Post your own thread asking precisely that question

You will understand that after the tone of recent posts and your continued harassment that I have a certain reluctance to aid you in your quest for knowledge.

 

[Ubergeekian]

Tell you what, Mr U, why don't you either:
1) phone up a sailing school and ask them
2) Post your own thread asking precisely that question

You are the one who first recommended taking a preparation week for both exams and then recommended taking a practical course for both exams. I'm still not sure which you meant, but I am still interested in your reasoning.

That's not harassment, it's genuine interest. You've done the courses and the exams, I haven't. I defer without hesitation to your experience.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

The Issue Between DS, CS and MCA YMC Has Always Been About Boat Handling

All is clear from the links below, which I am sure most who have posted on this thread will be familiar with.

Coastal Skipper / Yachtmaster Theory: http://www.rya.org.uk/coursestraining/courses/navigation/Pages/Coastalskipper.aspx

Coastal Skipper Course: http://www.rya.org.uk/coursestraining/courses/sailcruising/Pages/Coastalskipper.aspx

Yachtmaster Coastal Certificate of Competence: http://www.rya.org.uk/coursestraining/exams/Pages/Coastalskipper.aspx

The Day Skipper Practical Course and Coastal Skipper Course objectives are the most misunderstood by students: one is about learning how to handle the yacht in close quarters situations (amongst many other things), the other is about sailing passages (with advanced boat handling).

Quite often those who can sail passages to a CS level can not handle a yacht to a sufficient level of skill. However, a competent, confident and experienced Day Skipper probably could handle a yacht with CS skill.

The issue has always been about boat handling and often the advanced methods that are supposed to be taught on the Coastal Skipper can not be because the basics from the Day Skipper have not been grasped by the student, or sufficiently practised.

The boat handling content of the DS and CS are not supposed to be the same, however, there is always a chance that they do end up being very similar because of the variability of students competence i.e. time spent brushing up DS skills is at the expense of the advanced skills.

In this respect I would agree with Jimmi that the Coastal Skipper could be missed out and that a competent, confident and experienced DS could apply for the MCA Yachtmaster Coastal Certificate of Confidence, with a good chance of passing.

The reason that the preparation courses exist is because students never grasped, did not get taught, or did not get sufficient exposure time on boat handling at Day Skipper Level.

The DS course is pretty intense to teach if running at 5:1 ratio and there is a broad brush of relevant experience levels amongst the students. Its the course that used to give me the most doubts about the quality of learning being passed on; too much in too small a time frame.

Anyway, that's what I think.

 

[puddock]

Now if anyone (including Ubergeekian) wishes to get pedantic ....

Ubergeekian, pedantic? Never !!!