Dangerous foiling moth 'pilot' in Portland.

[Chiara’s slave]

The start line is set so members can whatch having tea and cakes

Tea and cakes? Champagne and strawberries I should think. I have friends who are members, but it’s not really my thing.

 

[jlavery]

Started videoing this absolut 'person' after he forced us in a 39' mobo to go into reverse to avoid him, and no, he wasn't holding a steady course. He then pulled the stunt in the video.
If you're going into Portland, keep an eye out for him, he'll make a big mess on someone's hull at some point.

Nothing to see. Nothing dangerous.

 

[Wansworth]

Tea and cakes? Champagne and strawberries I should think. I have friends who are members, but it’s not really my thing.

I think I much prefer fresh cucumber sarnies and tea

 

[Franny]

Hi everyone, we were the yacht and the moth sailor was our mate so he was giving us a flyby. He absolutely knew it was us as he’d been onboard the previous evening so there was no risk he was going to alarm anyone. (Other than onlookers).

The second time he did it I got some great photos!!

 

[Wansworth]

Crossing from the Hamble fuel jetty to load in Cowes the coaster I was on stopped to let a stream of Cowes week racers cross out bows even so we really had some abuse from yachting ladies…

 

[john_morris_uk]

I wonder if the OP has changed their mind yet? No criticism, as we all have different perspectives on things.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

The col regs written x years ago before high speed craft still apply and there is no reason why they shouldn’t still do so. After all, the col regs lol form the basis of rules of the air where traffic is travelling much faster. The issue here is that we have to adapt from our current expectation of sailing traffic travelling between (mostly) 0 to 15 knots to where they are now quicker. They are not going much faster than a quick motor craft and we can manage them. Having said that, if a jet ski had pulled the same stunt, I’m sure there would many wrinkled eye brows on here

The basis of the "steam gives way to sail" rule isn't speed - when it first became usual practice (before it was codified in the IRPCS), sail might well be faster or as fast. The reason is because a powered vessel has much greater ability to manoeuvre than a sailing vessel, especially the square riggers common back then. A powered vessel also has the ability to slow down rapidly by setting the engines in reverse.

 

[Nos4r2]

Didn't appear to be racing, there were only 3 of them and weren't following an obvious course.

The actions of the op contributed to how close the pass was. If he did the same with a jetski, there might be repercussions. Obviously in this case his actions were in good faith and attempting to avoid a closer interaction. The problem really is him not realising just how fast a moth is. Nor having faith that anyone who can foil one can probably steer round him.

My actions in sticking the boat in reverse simply brought us to a halt from 4 knots. Right up til then he was on a direct course to impact with the side of me right under the helm seat of the flybridge.
I'm quite aware how hard it is to change direction hard at 40ish knots and this guy had got too close to do so without a sharp course change before I halted us. He was clearly playing 'Steam gives way to sail' to its abolute limit, and yes while technically correct, 11 tonnes of steam that barely has steerage way vs 150kg of sail doing 10 times that speed is pushing it towards Darwinism.
If you think 150kg at 40 knots isn't going to do any damage, go and retake your physics exams or go and see quite how fast you die when you hit a solid object at that speed.

 

[Bouba]

Ok…yesterday…coming back through the channel (anyone familiar with Med ports knows that there is short well marked channel with a speed limit)
The wife was on the foredeck watching out in case any catamaran pulls out without looking (save that gripe for another day)
All of sudden a frogman pops up out the water right in front of my bow !!!
He looked as shocked as I was !
He looked like he was just coming up for breath..,no aqualung but black suit head to foot.
I braked and hooted for all I was worth and he swam off…there is less than a meter of water under my hull he would have eaten my propeller…diving in a channel what an idiot..he didn’t even have a red float that they are required to tow

 

[newtothis]

The basis of the "steam gives way to sail" rule isn't speed - when it first became usual practice (before it was codified in the IRPCS), sail might well be faster or as fast. The reason is because a powered vessel has much greater ability to manoeuvre than a sailing vessel, especially the square riggers common back then. A powered vessel also has the ability to slow down rapidly by setting the engines in reverse.

Cutty Sark could do 17 knots. Modern container ships are slow steaming at about 15-16 knots. I suspect it was no less manoeuvrable than a large modern boxship too. Progress ain't what it used to be.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

I accept your point. I suggest you ask the Royal Yacht Squadron to move their start line. The very best of luck, I have some rather nice Armagnac here to revive you afterwards.

What an utter and complete waste that would be

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Didn't appear to be racing, there were only 3 of them and weren't following an obvious course.

My actions in sticking the boat in reverse simply brought us to a halt from 4 knots. Right up til then he was on a direct course to impact with the side of me right under the helm seat of the flybridge.
I'm quite aware how hard it is to change direction hard at 40ish knots and this guy had got too close to do so without a sharp course change before I halted us. He was clearly playing 'Steam gives way to sail' to its abolute limit, and yes while technically correct, 11 tonnes of steam that barely has steerage way vs 150kg of sail doing 10 times that speed is pushing it towards Darwinism.
If you think 150kg at 40 knots isn't going to do any damage, go and retake your physics exams or go and see quite how fast you die when you hit a solid object at that speed.

20kn is flat out in a moth, so with that kind of exaggeration I’m inclined to think the rest of your comments are much the same.

 

[Nos4r2]

I wonder if the OP has changed their mind yet? No criticism, as we all have different perspectives on things.

Not at all. Deliberately coming that close to another vessel at that kind of speed is discourteous and dangerous.
It's akin to having a swarm of cyclists around a lorry in London. You don't know what they're going to do, but they have right of way, very little common sense and the lorry will automatically get the blame when one gets squashed.

20kn is flat out in a moth, so with that kind of exaggeration I’m inclined to think the rest of your comments are much the same.

Looked a load faster than that to me. Maybe I was wrong about the speed, but a quick google suggests I might not be as far out as you think, even if it was only for a short distance. It was certainly tanking it along and IMO significantly exceeding 20 knots.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

You’re still dismissing the skill of the moth pilot. He will be amongst the most able dinghy sailors in the country.

 

[westernman]

The basis of the "steam gives way to sail" rule isn't speed - when it first became usual practice (before it was codified in the IRPCS), sail might well be faster or as fast. The reason is because a powered vessel has much greater ability to manoeuvre than a sailing vessel, especially the square riggers common back then. A powered vessel also has the ability to slow down rapidly by setting the engines in reverse.

Check out here what is involved to tack a sailing vessel:-

 

[Supertramp]

Not at all. Deliberately coming that close to another vessel at that kind of speed is discourteous and dangerous.
It's akin to having a swarm of cyclists around a lorry in London. You don't know what they're going to do, but they have right of way, very little common sense and the lorry will automatically get the blame when one gets squashed.

Looked a load faster than that to me. Maybe I was wrong about the speed, but a quick google suggests I might not be as far out as you think, even if it was only for a short distance. It was certainly tanking it along and IMO significantly exceeding 20 knots.

I have some sympathy for you.

It's all very well being the give way vessel but if the difference between your speed and that of the other vessel is 4x or 5x less then your actions become less relevant, especially to a preoccupied dinghy sailor without a mate to steer while they study traffic movements.

I have heard the Navy use sound signals - 5 short blasts meaning "I do not understand your intentions, keep clear".

Of course a jetski would neither hear nor understand.....

 

[westernman]

Not at all. Deliberately coming that close to another vessel at that kind of speed is discourteous and dangerous.
It's akin to having a swarm of cyclists around a lorry in London. You don't know what they're going to do, but they have right of way, very little common sense and the lorry will automatically get the blame when one gets squashed.

Looked a load faster than that to me. Maybe I was wrong about the speed, but a quick google suggests I might not be as far out as you think, even if it was only for a short distance. It was certainly tanking it along and IMO significantly exceeding 20 knots.

He was probably planning on going to go astern of you - until you screwed things up by stopping. Maybe 15m or more behind you.

I used to sail a Hobie FX One. I could easily do 15 knots or more in that in favourable conditions with the spinnaker up and on the trapeze. If on a crossing course with a mobo, I would always aim just behind their stern and would pass a boat length or so behind. Most mobos I have crossed courses with have been moving slowly - so are treated more or less as fix immovable objects.

In the video I fail to see where he came anywhere near you. He was always a long way away.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

As far as I can understand, the Moth pilot was fully aware of his need not to cause a collision, and did so. The OP is simply unaware of what the moth is capable of.

 

[Nos4r2]

You’re still dismissing the skill of the moth pilot. He will be amongst the most able dinghy sailors in the country.

I don't care how skilled he is.
I have a friend who told me this guy is a skilled skipper.

Nobody is immune from fouling up.

I have some sympathy for you.

It's all very well being the give way vessel but if the difference between your speed and that of the other vessel is 4x or 5x less then your actions become less relevant, especially to a preoccupied dinghy sailor without a mate to steer while they study traffic movements.

I have heard the Navy use sound signals - 5 short blasts meaning "I do not understand your intentions, keep clear".

Of course a jetski would neither hear nor understand.....

Thanks. TBH, the sound signals would have been an option had I had time, but the entire episode took not much more time than 5 short blasts. It was faster to reach for the throttles than the horn.

He was probably planning on going to go astern of you - until you screwed things up by stopping. Maybe 15m or more behind you.

I used to sail a Hobie FX One. I could easily do 15 knots or more in that in favourable conditions with the spinnaker up and on the trapeze. If on a crossing course with a mobo, I would always aim just behind their stern and would pass a boat length or so behind. Most mobos I have crossed courses with have been moving slowly - so are treated more or less as fix immovable objects.

In the video I fail to see where he came anywhere near you. He was always a long way away.

I did make it clear that I started videoing afterwards.
When I put the engines into reverse he was on a constant bearing and closing at high speed. If you have a better definiton of a collision course...? When the boat stopped, he was no longer on a constant bearing.

 

[flaming]

If you look at the way the moth sailor treated the motoring yacht, i.e as an obstruction to be avoided even though he was technically the stand on vessel, I would assume that he would be doing exactly the same to you when you're doing 4 knots. Certainly when I've come across those moths, that's exactly what they've done. Just to get up and sailing on such a boat is well beyond most sailors, so I would be extremely surprised, to say the least, if someone as obviously competent as the chap in your video was relying on your actions to avoid a collision.

Portland harbour is where the GBR moth squad train. If you've got a higher res version of that video, pull the sail number and I'm sure someone could put you in touch with the sailor to get their point of view.