Cummins Mercruiser

[Pennpromo]

So first post and its not good. Really asking for some thoughts as a way to proceed...
I purchased, through a broker a Sunseeker that had ben re-engined just over two years ago with a pair of CMD 320 engines, the VM based straight six diesels. Also had brand new Bravo 3X drives. Hours showing at time of purchase were under 60 and she had a service record. Took her on a sea trial all was fine, made 35 knots at max revs.
Third trip out one motor drops power suddenly, no over heat or low oil pressure.
The long and the short of it is that it has dropped an inlet valve on one cylinder; so engine out. Took it to CMD main dealer. It sat there for three weeks before they told me that there was to be no assistance forthcomming and it needed a short block.
Now bear in mind that the engines were supplied and fitted by a CMD dealer, they have a service record, are 28 months old, (4 months out of warranty), but have by now done under 70 hours only.
Looking at a bil for about £8-10K including the lift out and re-fit, do you think that Cummins Mercruiser should be sympathetic?
Have just collected the engine, in bits, in absolute frustration, from CMD to take it back to my trusted marine engineer who is now going to rebuild.
Be very interested in your comments. Thanks in advance.

 

[rafiki_]

My personal support from CMD was extremely good, but this was related to the boat safety scheme, where CMD designed, supplied and fitted some fuel filter shields for my engines.

Could not have asked for more from them. Boat was built in 2003, they supported this year.

 

[MVP]

10 Hours in 3 seasons sounds like severe under use.

Most modern mechanicals suffer more from too little rather than too much excercise.

You're well out of warantee, so don't see how you're entitled to anything.

MVP

 

[nonitoo]

I had the same experience with Cummins.

The bearings in my turbo (2.8ltr diesel) went in May, one month out of warranty, and Cummins refused to even consider any contribution. Total engine hours in two years 250 and all maintained as per book.

Not only that but, after getting my recon turbo back in June, I am still waiting for a gasket set to refit it.

In fact I used a VP gasket that fitted perfectly for the main and the oil feed gasket was made up locally. All is now working perfectly.

All in all Cummins have proved to be a total waste of time and space. It would appear that spares are a real problem.

Oil and fuel filters are available but precious little else and Cummins appear to have little interest in their marine market.

Tom

 

[jonno45]

I must agree with MVP 70hrs use over two years, is worse than 7000hrs.

However, I am supprised that only 4 months out of warranty Cummins rejected your claim. As the issue is an internal problem and you can prove that you have not abused the engine or servicing, I am sure a well worded solicitors letter should do the trick. Check the ECU to proove that you have kept within the engine rev range.
You have more rights than i think you are aware of?

 

[Nigelhg]

Under sale of goods act goods must last a reasonable amount of time - reasonable is usually defined 2-6 years dependent on item. I would get an independent engineers report and go see a solicitor.

 

[Dave_Snelson]

Sorry to hear this Pennpromo - but the cynic in me says "welcome to the world of leisure boating". I had similar repair bills when I collected my last boat from a broker.

Its definitely worth a try re sale of goods act but really, don't hold your breath. Get your engine rebuilt and get on enjoying your boat.

 

[Alrob]

so how does the under use theory work then when you have stock boats lying for ages or engines that are lying in crates, are these engines no good ?

 

[Tidnock]

The experience I have with Cummins is land based, they were fitted in some of the new Excavators we sold up to 14 and 19 litres, they were very thirsty in relation to similar power engines, they did not have a warranty department they had a warranty refusal department.

 

[mm1]

so how does the under use theory work then when you have stock boats lying for ages or engines that are lying in crates, are these engines no good ?

Hi i think what people mean is that once things are in the salt water enviroment they will degrade very quickly if not used,engines still in crates will be protected by the manufacturer,(imho) regards MM1.

 

[scubaman]

I find this very interesting, as today I had a chat with a local Volvo engineer about Cummins engines. He told about two local boats, that had had an engine rebuilt. One of them twice in two years. He also commented on the poor availability of spares. You might say that he is slightly biased and you'd be right, but he had also spoken to the importer here to become an official service center, but they had showed little interest. I've known the guy for sometime so I'm giving some weight to his views.

We a considering a boat with QSC Cummins -engines but the apparent issue with service and support is somewhat putting me off the boat we otherwise like. Volvo can usually ship spares by the following morning.

 

[omega2]

cummins

I did not realise that those VM based engines were still around, my mate had a 120 BMW in a Hardy 24, a few years back, and these as many will know were rubbish, when this one gave up the ghost and was removed from the boat we found VM stamps all over it. He later bought a Mercruiser 180 unit, and this was also found to be VM. He sold the boat!!

 

[Latestarter1]

CMD

Just to re-focus the original post concerned a pair of CMD branded VM diesels which suffered an early life failure.

The response from the dealer was totally unacceptable. Yes engines were clearly out of warranty, but CMD also have a policy budget to address just such problems.
# 1. Engines do not just fail there has to be a reason. Why no failure analyses of the valve drop, unless the cause of the problem is understood could happen on the other engine. Understanding the cause of the failure would add to your leverage for an out of warranty claim.
# 2. Was the dealer asked to submit a policy claim for the failure on your behalf? Let’s not pussy foot around here, name and shame dealer if customer service was deficient. There are some real good and enthusiastic CMD dealers out there weeding out the dead wood will benefit everybody.

I have to declare not being a lover of VM products, the latest common rail engines looks brilliant on paper, however in the past VM have always had that Italian characteristic of being a slightly flawed gem.

Parts supply for the VM engines was rubbish when Barrus was selling them and better now they are being sold under the CMD banner, but still not up to Volvo standards. However if you move on to Cummins own engines it is a totally different story. QSB, QSC, QSL and QSM11, parts supply is equal in every way to Volvo or CAT. And for consumables just about every commercial parts factor is a dealer for Cummins Fleetguard filtration at prices which embarrass Volvo and Yanmar. This does not make Cummins Diesel too happy either.

As for the post claiming worse fuel consumption in large engined excavators I returned from visiting mine sites in Finland and Sweden a while back. Just happens that I have detailed fuel records for mining equipment which gives Cummins a 5% advantage over equivalent CAT engine ratings. MTU is awash with Cummins in the big power node; however maintaince costs for MTU far higher than CAT or Cummins as the life to overhaul can be a little as 50% of the other two. Sounds to me like the author of this post had a personality clash with certain people at Cummins Diesel the Cummins distributor, which is real easy. Having said that my experience with Cummins distributors in the U.S ranges from brilliant to plain dreadful, However CAT seemed to have similar problems.

Going back to basics, politely make a written demand that a policy claim be submitted to CMD, if rejected get a proper report on the cause of failure and go down the legal route.
“Always speak quietly but carry a big stick”

 

[Pennpromo]

CMD 320

Sorry for the delay in reply on this thread: an update.
When I dropped off the engine in pieces I was sent an estaimate for the work to repair the engine that stated that it would be ready in about ten days. I then called about eight days in to be told that there were probelms removing a liner and that I would be called back shortly with news. This did not happen. I was passing the workshop, as opposed to the offices, of the Cummins dealer, so I dropped in. Spoke to the engineeer who had not started any work on the engine as he had more urgent jobs. I then called the dealer a day later onl yto be told that still they could not get the liner out. I then told them that I had met the engineer and knew that it had not ben started. They promised to start the engine the following Monday to have it ready by Friday. On the Wednesday I got a call stating that they had now started the engine rebuild, found more damage and that I needed a new short block plus three cylinder heads.
At this news I asked them to approach Marine Power, Belgium for assistance, as they are the warranty authority for CMD engines. A day later, when I called back the Cummins dealer said that the response had been that there was no assistance and a short engine may be available by the end of September, thus completely missing this Summer.
I asked for copies of correspondance with and contact details for Marine Power Belgium to which I was told it could only be through CMD dealers.
I have now collected the engine, in pieces, rebuild unstarted, I am having the faulty valve analysed and the engine rebuilt elsewhere.
I have written to the CMD Customer Support Director in Belgium who has acknowledged my email and is looking into the problem.
Will keep you posted with any developments.
Not happy at all !

 

[DAKA]

You could try
http://ccgi.vmspecialists.plus.com/release/home.php?id=525755852a43064a7abc152abff

for parts, they can get most things off the self and others direct from the VM factory in Italy with in 7 days.
(your engine is made by VM Italy, just painted and sold by CMD).


I have sent you a PM, Press 'private messages' above to read.

 

[PCUK]

Omega. I was looking at a boat with 2001 "Mercruiser D-Tronic" 260hp. Is this likely to be VM based?
Thanks.

 

[neale]

Omega. I was looking at a boat with 2001 "Mercruiser D-Tronic" 260hp. Is this likely to be VM based?
Thanks.

I'm pretty sure those engines are VM based. I quite like VM engines, have one in my old Range Rover and it is very easy to work on.

 

[volvopaul]

PFC yes im afraid they are vm based I personally would not tough one with a shi!!y stick they seem to be thirsty and noisey compared to a volvo, the spares are an absoloute ripp off some parts are no longer available off the shelf now, even simple parts like anodes for the 180 and 220 we could not get a few weeks ago.

 

[Pennpromo]

CMD 320

Just heard from the engine builder that my block is cracked between the cylinders, he says at the moment that its a right off, so back to square one.
Does anyone know what the difference is between the various outputs, 2203, 250, 300 and 320? Is it simply a question of different intercoolers, turbos, injectors and pumps, or are the heads, blocks, pistons and valves different ?
If they are the same block and heads apart from the ancillaries that opens up a few options.

 

[aquapower]

anodes

I had trouble getting anodes as they are no longer made, Barrus supplied me with a Yanmar one which they use instead.