Crutch straps

[Scotty_Tradewind]

In cockpit 3 years ago, big green one came in during a F7-8 in cold weather. Crew, a big strong man in his early 40's, had lifejacket on with no crotch strap.
Lifejacket automatically inflated and with his bulky warm gear on under his oilees he began to choke with restricted breathing as his lifejacket rose up around his neck.
Although we were momentarily both sitting in waste high water, we were soon in a dry cockpit as the drains got rid of the flood in double quick time.
However, we were about to knife the jacket to relieve his breathing when we managed to free his manual inflation pipe and let out excess air.
This all happened in seconds but it was lifethreatening and if he had been on his own or had been spilled from the cockpit I reckon he could have been a statistic!

Since that day, all my likejackets have a crotch strap, all have hoods, all carry lights.
I still hate wearing mine and find it a real encumberance but as soon as conditions warrant it, I wear it.

 

[ninky]

Lifejacket automatically inflated and with his bulky warm gear on under his oilees he began to choke with restricted breathing as his lifejacket rose up around his neck.
.

sounds like a reason for lifejackets NOT to be worn. is there somewhere to report incidents like this so that design and advice could be improved?

 

[Refueler]

sounds like a reason for lifejackets NOT to be worn. is there somewhere to report incidents like this so that design and advice could be improved?

IMHO you're wrong ... what is being illustrated is the LJ rising up and choking the person because of all the gear he had on under it. If he'd used straps - it would not have risen up and choked him.

That's what I read into it anyway.

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

" IMHO you're wrong ... what is being illustrated is the LJ rising up and choking the person because of all the gear he had on under it. If he'd used straps - it would not have risen up and choked him.

That's what I read into it anyway. "


Hi Nigel..... Our analysis of the situation too. Scotty
p.s. hope the cruise went well.

 

[fishermantwo]

Lifejacket automatically inflated and with his bulky warm gear on under his oilees he began to choke with restricted breathing as his lifejacket rose up around his neck.

You only have to look at a picture of these inflatable jackets and see that's going to happen. Ban inflatable jackets till they get the basic design right.

I agree with Estarzinger, very sensible post.[2231647]

 

[bilbobaggins]

Quite a bit of it simply will not do the job we expect of it. ....Everyone can and should think about this and find his/her own way and decision.

Some years ago I approached a couple of LSJ manufacturers with the idea of providing a life-jacket mounted on a mesh 'waistcoat', with small pouches for safety gear, similar to those in use for decades by military aircrew. The answer was that there was no demand, and that yachtsmen wouldn't pay more than the absolute minumum for safety gear.

I've given thought to the gear I use personally and, while I'm unable to manufacture an LSJ, the one I carry and use is 'commercial spec'. I've noted over the years from fatal accident inquiries that personal lifelines fail/break quite frequently, as do yottie harnesses, so I have a rock-climbing harness for when I'm not wearing a ( life ) jacket with a built-in chest harness - and I've also made up my own personal lifelines ( 2 ) from climbers' slings and Gibb 'fall arrest' snaplinks rated at several times that of yottie kit and the ISAF/RORC Special Regs specs.

I've satisfied myself that these items of kit are 'fit for purpose'. It's my ass....

 

[estarzinger]

so I have a rock-climbing harness for when I'm not wearing a ( life ) jacket with a built-in chest harness

The answer was that there was no demand, and that yachtsmen wouldn't pay more than the absolute minimum for safety gear.

I agree with the first - the rock gear is quite well designed and constructed. I use a climbing harness whenever I do mast work, and like you use spectra climbing loops as my harness tether. Scuba gear is also generally quite well made and constructed. It's part of my rant that the other sports I do don't allow the 2nd rate stuff that is in the yachting market.

The second comment must come from someone who has no clue about marketing or yachting equipment. The mark-ups in yachting gear are huge. Spinlock basically takes rock climbing harnesses from Petzl and resells them for double the price. The yachting buyers are generally quite willing to pay outrageous prices for the best gear. However, specifically with life jackets, there is probably a problem and costs getting the various necessary government approvals.

 

[dk]

Just a thought - if you're sitting in the cockpit (I assume from your tale this chap was) would you adjust the crotch strap to suit the sitting position? And, if you did, would you be able to stand afterwards?

Personally I think the design of modern LJs is rubbish - if they were more like waistcoats and were joined beneath the armpits you wouldn't need a stupid, uncomfortable, impractical (and sometimes even dangerous when they catch in deck gear) crotch strap in the first place!

 

[bilbobaggins]

Is this the sort of thing we'd like to see more of....?

 

[bedouin]

The big difference between Climbing/Scuba gear and sailing safety gear is that Climbers and Divers trust their lives to their gear much more than sailors and so insist on quality - also any shortcomings in their gear would be highlighted in a tragic way.

While there are undoubtedly shortcomings with the design of LJs you have to ask how much it really matters in practice. How many lives have actually been lost as a result of these design flaws?

I think we sailors can get over cautious in the area of safety - or to be more precise overly reliant on "technology" rather than skill and common sense.

 

[AliM]

"I been thinking about exactly where the crotch strap goes when I'm wearing it and the effect of all my body weight and sodden clothes upon it..... On reflection I may change the crotch strap on my lifejacket for the thigh strap type."

When we did a MOB recovery practice last year (written up on the East Coast forum), James (the victim) was repeatedly jumping in, and we were using various means to haul him on board. He started off using his lifejacket with no crotch strap (it rode up in the water and he found it difficult to keep it on when we hoisted him out of the water), and then with a single crotch strap. After one lift out, he substituted the single crotch strap for the double type that attach around each thigh - for obvious reasons! I tried as well, and although the single strap was not quite as bad for me (for equally obvious reasons) the thigh straps are much better. The whole exercise was pretty salutary - we realised how difficult it is to recover someone from the water, even a conscious victim on a warm, calm day at anchor. The chance of recovering someone in the sort of conditions that they are likely to go overboard, is pretty minimal, at least with the usual two-person crews that we sail with. The lifejacket is going to be necessary to keep the MOB afloat until help arrives and the harness integral to it is going to be useful (probably essential) when they try to pull you out of the water.

After that experience, we try to remember to wear lifejackets and crotch straps. The moral is to avoid a MOB at all costs, though.

 

[Refueler]

Just a thought - if you're sitting in the cockpit (I assume from your tale this chap was) would you adjust the crotch strap to suit the sitting position? And, if you did, would you be able to stand afterwards?
........

With some straps - that is a problem and is exactly why I altered mine to be so that you do not alter at all. They fit sitting, kneeling, standing ... whatever you are doing. They do not drop, move or catch anything but stay in designed place.

 

[DRANNIE]

A bit of a two part rant on yachting safety equipment –

Part 1: the design and construction quality is scandalous. Quite a bit of it simply will not do the job we expect of it - Man over board poles that sink, radar reflectors that don’t reflect much, and life jackets that does seem to save lives. Even at the top end, I think of the Spinlock lifejackets/harnesses that were selling for +£500 and they convinced a couple Volvo crews to wear them and the crews hated them (uncomfortable) and ended up making their own lightweight spectra harnesses. If as a post above suggests, life jackets don’t really save lives without crotch straps and spray hoods why are they sold without them? The whole yachting safety market is just full of so much ****.

Er wrong.... Ok as a pleased deckvest owner (and I have 4 more basic xm's also on the boat). Firstly I paid £166 which is about the same as a crewsaver or any of the other more expensive brands (so not £500). I bought one after seeing them used on a survival course and trying one on. The fit due to the 3d shape is more secure and it has interlocking bladders which don't channel water into your face or leave a slot your head tries to escape though. It comes with thigh (not crotch straps) as standard, a sprayhood as standard and a light. From experience of an offshore series and the fastnet its comfortable and is easy to get on, adjust in the dark inside a boat which resembles a tumbledrier. The thigh straps work like a climbing harness and are much more comfortable the croch straps. Finally do racers hate them? Well on the circuit this year I suspect the deckvest was one of the jackets of choice for race crews and I certainly saw lots of them being worn.

A general comment about these safety posts (not a go at the above poster) Its about risk, and some people make poor risk assessments as far as that relates to yourself then thats your lookout. If it is an assessment made on behalf of your kids or non-sailing friend then IMHO you should be ashamed and indeed you might go to jail. My kids always wear life jackets and my 2 year old wears his as soon as he sets foot on the pontoon. Frankly I don't give a **** if anyone thinks we look like twats wearing life jackets on a sunny day as I sleep easy knowing its unlikely my kids are going to drown in 2 metres of water in the black water on a sunny day while I attempt to retrieve them, I don't think the 2 year old would float for very long without a life jacket.

These debates come up again and again and for an industry like gliding or horseriding or motorsport poster advocating the non-wearing of safety gear would be frankly considered insane. I jusy imagine attending a track day, "Oh its hot I'm not wearing leathersand a helmet, I tell you what, I won't bloody fall off and if I do it'll be better I get completely killed really quickly......."

back in my box

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

Just a thought - if you're sitting in the cockpit (I assume from your tale this chap was) would you adjust the crotch strap to suit the sitting position? And, if you did, would you be able to stand afterwards?

Personally I think the design of modern LJs is rubbish - if they were more like waistcoats and were joined beneath the armpits you wouldn't need a stupid, uncomfortable, impractical (and sometimes even dangerous when they catch in deck gear) crotch strap in the first place!

good points!

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

I'm not sure whether you guys have all got very strange lifejackets, or really big balls.... but we don't find our crutch straps at all uncomfortable.... sitting, standing, rowing, whatever really.... they are twin straps rather than a single one... dunno if that makes any difference.... we also don't find that they catch on anything.... or at least I haven't managed to do so in two seasons of using 'em....

I feel inadequate in the tackle department now.....

 

[lw395]

I'm not sure whether you guys have all got very strange lifejackets, or really big balls.... but we don't find our crutch straps at all uncomfortable.... sitting, standing, rowing, whatever really.... they are twin straps rather than a single one... dunno if that makes any difference.... we also don't find that they catch on anything.... or at least I haven't managed to do so in two seasons of using 'em....

I feel inadequate in the tackle department now.....

I think there's two parts to this, one the design of different LJ's and after market straps, and two, different sorts of sailing.
In keelboat racing, I'm often getting into positions probably not relevant to your yacht, but our silly class rules insist we wear 150N LJ's instead of BA's designed for inshore sailing.
The design of my Baltic LJ works well without extra straps, at least on me, but the add on thigh straps I tried with it were a real nuisance.
I would suggest that if you want thigh straps, buy the whole LJ and straps together. I might well do that, keep a separate LJ for offshore, so I know it has not been worn heavily in a few season's racing. A lot of the times I put on an LJ it's to get in a friends RIB without setting a bad example to his kids.
I agree with the posts saying the design of LJ's is not what it could be. They cost less than they did 10 years ago, but I think corners have been cut. Some of the new ones there is no spare space in the cover for a light even.

Also don't forget to check them over during the winter, wear and corrosion creep up on us.

 

[lw395]

A bit of a two part rant on yachting safety equipment –



Er wrong.... Ok as a pleased deckvest owner (and I have 4 more basic xm's also on the boat).

A general comment about these safety posts (not a go at the above poster) Its about risk, and some people make poor risk assessments as far as that relates to yourself then thats your lookout. If it is an assessment made on behalf of your kids or non-sailing friend then IMHO you should be ashamed and indeed you might go to jail. My kids always wear life jackets and my 2 year old wears his as soon as he sets foot on the pontoon. Frankly I don't give a **** if anyone thinks we look like twats wearing life jackets on a sunny day as I sleep easy knowing its unlikely my kids are going to drown in 2 metres of water in the black water on a sunny day while I attempt to retrieve them, I don't think the 2 year old would float for very long without a life jacket.

These debates come up again and again and for an industry like gliding or horseriding or motorsport poster advocating the non-wearing of safety gear would be frankly considered insane. I jusy imagine attending a track day, "Oh its hot I'm not wearing leathersand a helmet, I tell you what, I won't bloody fall off and if I do it'll be better I get completely killed really quickly......."

back in my box

So Deckvest for yourself, inferior design XM for your guests?

 

[Refueler]

" IMHO you're wrong ... what is being illustrated is the LJ rising up and choking the person because of all the gear he had on under it. If he'd used straps - it would not have risen up and choked him.

That's what I read into it anyway. "


Hi Nigel..... Our analysis of the situation too. Scotty
p.s. hope the cruise went well.

Hi Scotty ... see thread ... Baltic trip pt 1 etc. Cruise went really well but cut short with Mothers passing away. Still trying to sort the mess ..

 

[Refueler]

I think there's two parts to this, one the design of different LJ's and after market straps, and two, different sorts of sailing.
In keelboat racing, I'm often getting into positions probably not relevant to your yacht, but our silly class rules insist we wear 150N LJ's instead of BA's designed for inshore sailing.
The design of my Baltic LJ works well without extra straps, at least on me, but the add on thigh straps I tried with it were a real nuisance.
I would suggest that if you want thigh straps, buy the whole LJ and straps together. I might well do that, keep a separate LJ for offshore, so I know it has not been worn heavily in a few season's racing. A lot of the times I put on an LJ it's to get in a friends RIB without setting a bad example to his kids.
I agree with the posts saying the design of LJ's is not what it could be. They cost less than they did 10 years ago, but I think corners have been cut. Some of the new ones there is no spare space in the cover for a light even.

Also don't forget to check them over during the winter, wear and corrosion creep up on us.

The 150N aspect has no bearing on it nor the sailing you do. It is purely down to strap design. If it is as the optional ones for my LJ's - they work, but being a single fix point slip down the legs, get caught etc. So my alteration cures that by making them a two point fixing ie front and back. I would defy anyone to then find they cannot do near all while sailing even having a pee over side etc.

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

DK did make the point above relating to how a crotch strap may be adjusted.
If seated, as was my crew when he took a green one, even if he had a crotch strap on it may still have been too loose whilst seated and so we think the LJ would have ridden up around his neck in seconds anyway.