Easticks28
Well-Known Member
No , the're the things my boom rests in whilst moored....
Crutch straps
- Thread starter bilbobaggins
- Start date
No , the're the things my boom rests in whilst moored....
Ubergeekian
Well-Known Member
I'd like to know why nobody noticed this for the best part of a hundred year. I presume life jacket manufacturers' profits have been falling, so they need to induce some panic and flog us new stuff ...
LittleSister
Well-Known Member
I've always thought that, aside from any crotch straps, LJs had to be strapped well tight round the waist/ribs to be any good in action, and have always been surprised that many people have their LJs dangling rather loosely around themselves. (Most LJ waist straps, though, are such a pain to adjust.)
I deliberately bought a lifejacket with a crotch strap last time around (few years ago now), having had my attention drawn to the claims of their importance by the sailing comics. It's a Musto LJ with integrated harness, and I've been very pleased with it except for the crotch strap (a single strap from cente rear. between the legs and then clips to the just one side of the centre front) which catches on everything (as a previous poster has mentioned) and sometimes catches on your trousers to prevent you fully standing up. It can be an absolute pain in the testicles, and the thought of being lifted by the life jacket doesn't, er, bear thinking about. I try to tell myself if it was being used in earnest to lift me I wouldn't be worrying about my testicles, but in reality I think it would make a difficult situation even worse. I persist in using the strap, though, just in case.
By contrast the First Mate recently acquired one of those fancy expensive Spinlock LJs, which has 'thigh straps' which she enthuses are comfortable and (once you work them out) easy to put on and easy to adjust. These grip round the upper thigh (which i imagine thickens upwards whether you're fat or thin), and don't depend on sensitive areas to hold them down. There are two straps, one for each leg. They are each fixed at the front and the back - like the earlier poster's modifed system , as I understand it, except that they are held close together on the outside of the leg by a horizontal strap of webbing of about 4 long. (So, on each side a strap passes from front of LJ, through webbing strap on outside of hip, round front and of LJ.inside the thigh, then round the back to same webbing strap on hip, then to back. I've got my order in with Santa!
I deliberately bought a lifejacket with a crotch strap last time around (few years ago now), having had my attention drawn to the claims of their importance by the sailing comics. It's a Musto LJ with integrated harness, and I've been very pleased with it except for the crotch strap (a single strap from cente rear. between the legs and then clips to the just one side of the centre front) which catches on everything (as a previous poster has mentioned) and sometimes catches on your trousers to prevent you fully standing up. It can be an absolute pain in the testicles, and the thought of being lifted by the life jacket doesn't, er, bear thinking about. I try to tell myself if it was being used in earnest to lift me I wouldn't be worrying about my testicles, but in reality I think it would make a difficult situation even worse. I persist in using the strap, though, just in case.
By contrast the First Mate recently acquired one of those fancy expensive Spinlock LJs, which has 'thigh straps' which she enthuses are comfortable and (once you work them out) easy to put on and easy to adjust. These grip round the upper thigh (which i imagine thickens upwards whether you're fat or thin), and don't depend on sensitive areas to hold them down. There are two straps, one for each leg. They are each fixed at the front and the back - like the earlier poster's modifed system , as I understand it, except that they are held close together on the outside of the leg by a horizontal strap of webbing of about 4 long. (So, on each side a strap passes from front of LJ, through webbing strap on outside of hip, round front and of LJ.inside the thigh, then round the back to same webbing strap on hip, then to back. I've got my order in with Santa!
Ubergeekian
Well-Known Member
I'm with you, almost. I have a buoyancy aid, which is used to keep me warm. My expectation is that if I will fall off I will die: all a lifejacket will do is extend the dying process a bit. Therefore the imperative is not to go over the side in the first place. Harnesses are far, far, far more important than lifejackets. If you could only have one for a foresail change on a rotten night then which, dear reader, would it be?
fishermantwo
Well-Known Member
PBO July 2009 carried out tests on alternate jackets. The one that was best on test was the Kru Sport Pro. This is touted as a fresh new think on jackets with a mesh waist coat back and sides. I looked at it and it was obviously a copy of military spec aircrew life jackets I wore as naval aircrew. I spent 14 years as navy aircrew and did several survival courses and of course annual dunking and helo rescue from a one man dinghy etc. I can not imagine these style of jackets requiring crotch straps. The difference being we had our own jackets that were adjusted to our own body shapes and it would be physically impossible for them to ride up. Crotch straps would also interphere with parachute leg straps as well. I look at designs like Spinlocks and others and its obvious that they would be useless with out crotch straps, there is just a gap from the waist to the bottom of the armpit.
20 years in the navy and 26 years as a professional fisherman and now by law in this country I have to wear a life jacket crossing a bar in my yacht [dont have to when I cross the same bar as a professional fisherman]. I wear a dinghy buoyancy jacket with foam filled panels. The arm pits down to the waist filled with foam prevent the jacket raising up. I have fitted seat belt webbing around the top of the jacket same position as a helo lifting strop would go, this terminates in loops at the front for use as either a safety line or to be hoisted out of the water. The jacket clips closed at the same position and at the waist. Comfortable to wear, nothing to fail, impossible to ride up unless my arms come off.
20 years in the navy and 26 years as a professional fisherman and now by law in this country I have to wear a life jacket crossing a bar in my yacht [dont have to when I cross the same bar as a professional fisherman]. I wear a dinghy buoyancy jacket with foam filled panels. The arm pits down to the waist filled with foam prevent the jacket raising up. I have fitted seat belt webbing around the top of the jacket same position as a helo lifting strop would go, this terminates in loops at the front for use as either a safety line or to be hoisted out of the water. The jacket clips closed at the same position and at the waist. Comfortable to wear, nothing to fail, impossible to ride up unless my arms come off.
ninky
Well-Known Member
OH is a welder and sometimes has to wear climbing style harnesses for working at heights. they got shown a H&S vid at work where the guy basically hadn't adjusted his harness tight enough, fell, and after dangling for a while ended up with a shredded scrotum and two loose *******s dangling by strings. i tell you, after seeing that, don't think hubby was walking in quite the same way for a couple of days.....
but to get to the point, perhaps lifejacket manufacturers should borrow something from the design of climbers harnesses. these are designed so they won't ride up the body under heavy loads (remember it might not just the fact it's inflated, you might be attached to the boat by a line). a proper climbing style harness combined with an inflating ability would seem the perfect solution.
spynappels
Well-Known Member
Most climbing harnesses are sit harnesses, so just go round the waist and thighs, no higher. Some sort of modular approach may work though, a harness that can be attached to a LJ.
Could also be used as a Bosuns chair if required.....
And yes, they would inspire me with more confidence than a crotch strap alone. Although they do not make for easy access to pockets and fly etc.......
estarzinger
Well-Known Member
The plain fact is that I don't know any circumnavigator who regularly wears a life jacket. I am sure there must be a few, and they will probably all now pop into this thread, but by and large folks with a lot of sea time don't.
And that's not because we are lazy or old fashioned or not concerned about safety. We all have tremendous respect for the sea and we really don't want to fall in.
We develop 'sealegs' and a subconscious instinct to always have a really firm grip on the boat. Sometime take a look at the french top racers on the open 60's and tris moving round the boat in storms.
I have actually studied quite closely the few cases I know of where experienced seamen have gone over and they have all (but one) been working at either mast or headstay, standing up using both hands, and have almost always been hit by the boom or spin pole (one was washed of by a huge wave while working a spin winch). So, I have modified my behavor in those situations. I sit or kneel and I have no loss of pride if I feel I need to crawl up the decks. I do whatever is necessary to be really solidly grounded on the deck. If I feel at all insecure, I clip in if I am using two hands or there is a lot of solid water coming on deck.
As an aside, on the more pleasant side of cruising, when we are in the tropics, I am quite often wearing nothing at all (saves on the laundry you know).
In the colder weather, as I mentionned, I do wear a dry suit in the worst conditions and that has way more flotation that a life jacket and will keep me from hypotherma (which a life jacket probably will not), and will not possibly malfunction the way an inflatable life jacket could.
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ninky
Well-Known Member
can't wait for google earth to be able to zoom into that one!
not something i expect to see on the solent. however, nudist boating could perhaps a niche pastime...."marge, do you mind going and picking up the mooring buoy this time....."
Strathglass
Well-Known Member
Right! We all know that lifejackets, in event of need, without fitted crutch straps are close to useless. Er, rather, all of us who've ever done a Sea Survival course and/or tried to do a lo-o-o-ng press-up on an inflated LSJ without such straps.....
So, how many of us STILL haven't got around to fitting 'em and - more important - haven't bothered to fit 'em to the SWMBO's lifejacket ....and the kids'!
A prize for the lamest excuse.....
I always wear a crutch strap with my lifejacket as one end is fixed to the rear like a tail and I would trip over it if I did not fix it on.
One of the great advantages of having one is that when puting it on over a sailing jacket with a thick collar then the dangling strap between one's legs can be pulled and the lifejacket moves into place.
Iain
estarzinger
Well-Known Member
The USCG data is even more depressing than that.
Two pieces of data related to life jacket performance (Official US Coast Guard data – original source reports on our website):
9.3% = % of US adult boaters (excluding jet skis) wearing life jackets (8 year average)
9.3% = % of man-over-board fatalities wearing life jackets (8 year average)
What that data suggests is that when you go in the water, you are just as likely to die if you are wearing a life jacket as if not, or at least the life jackets are not changing the odds as much as any of use would expect.
I am sure there are various problems with the data collection and analysis but putting that aside you really would have wanted to see the % of man-overboard wearing life jackets at near zero and they are not. There are significant numbers of drownings of people wearing life jackets. This can be partially explained by the observation: Virtually no life jacket will hold the users' head out of the water entirely by itself (especially in any waves), and so they will not save anyone who is unconscious, extremely fatigued, hypothermia or drunk.
As a mostly double-handed sailor, where on passage my partner will mostly be down below resting, this gets only worse. Because if someone goes overboard, the boat will happily sail along until change of watch time comes around and the other watch comes up and finds no-one on deck. It’s pretty unlikely the MOB will then be successfully found much less recovered alive.
For us, it all comes back to doing what it takes to stay on the boat.
lw395
Well-Known Member
I don't think crotch straps should be necessary if the LJ is well designed and fits.
Possibly some of the modern designs are so short that the central buckle is too high up?
Have they designed out some material to save cost?
I don't wear a crotch strap for inshore racing, having tried them I find they are restrictive on the LJ's I have. But then I'm often clambering onto a keelboat foredeck or kneeling in the bilge, not the image Oyster keep trying to sell me I know!.
I've also had the experience of going over the side and found that my LJ works fine without. I also fall off dinghies now and then wearing a buoyancy aid without a crotch strap, sometimes over a drysuit and harness. I've never come near to it going over my head (even reaching up with both hands to get to the centreboard) and I tend to float quite vertical in the water.
What I might like for inshore racing is a salopette type of oilskin trousers with buoyancy in the chest.
For actually surviving in the water, a drysuit is the answer, avoid all that cold shock and be conscious and strong enough to save yourself. From my humble (humbling!) experience, the dinghy racers' tops with neck seal can actually slow the ingress of water hugely, avoiding cold shock. Obviously waist and ankle seals matter too, but my musto oilies seal quite well to my boots, I found!
But I agree with people when they say concentrate on staying on the boat. Falling off a yacht offshore is not a good option whatever kit you have. Maybe those without LJ's will have extra determination to hold on?
Possibly some of the modern designs are so short that the central buckle is too high up?
Have they designed out some material to save cost?
I don't wear a crotch strap for inshore racing, having tried them I find they are restrictive on the LJ's I have. But then I'm often clambering onto a keelboat foredeck or kneeling in the bilge, not the image Oyster keep trying to sell me I know!.
I've also had the experience of going over the side and found that my LJ works fine without. I also fall off dinghies now and then wearing a buoyancy aid without a crotch strap, sometimes over a drysuit and harness. I've never come near to it going over my head (even reaching up with both hands to get to the centreboard) and I tend to float quite vertical in the water.
What I might like for inshore racing is a salopette type of oilskin trousers with buoyancy in the chest.
For actually surviving in the water, a drysuit is the answer, avoid all that cold shock and be conscious and strong enough to save yourself. From my humble (humbling!) experience, the dinghy racers' tops with neck seal can actually slow the ingress of water hugely, avoiding cold shock. Obviously waist and ankle seals matter too, but my musto oilies seal quite well to my boots, I found!
But I agree with people when they say concentrate on staying on the boat. Falling off a yacht offshore is not a good option whatever kit you have. Maybe those without LJ's will have extra determination to hold on?
Refueler
Well-Known Member
I find it surprising some of the posts I read here.
Crotch straps for buoyancy aids. Why ? The construction is such that it's unlikely such an aid will ride up sufficiently.
Crotch straps being awkward / hindrance to racers movement. Agreed with certain designs, such as the ones I bought for my LJ's - but simple modification made them suitable for ALL use and activity.
LJ never ridden up after jumping in. I find that misleading to others, I don't dis-believe the claims, but would ask that it be qualified by saying how the LJ was worn. Having seen the effects of LJ's not correctly worn, I can say without reservation a loose, poorly fitted LJ without straps is a serious risk to the wearer.
Just to labour the point : Why is it that Professional Survival Courses for Seaman make strong point about folding the arms across the chest when jumping into the water ? Simple - to help to keep LJ from riding up. (There is another advisory which is seldom mentioned outside of Professional circles ...
that is having crossed legs when hitting the water 
. I'll leave readers to guess why that is !! )
Why do people post against the use when logic and sensibility indicates their use is better.
I agree that people still die overboard if not found quick enough. But let's take a case of a MOB who has a bad fitted LJ and it rides up. He/she cannot get it back in place and he/she drowns within a very short period of going into the water. Other person on boat comes up to cockpit some time after ... finds him / her gone ... most people have GPS and able to retrace track accurately ... they come upon the body ... Maybe it would have been within time to recover alive if the LJ hadn't caused premature drowning.
Can you live with that ? maybe it's your wife or child .... can you honestly live with that ?
Fine so we have people saying secret is to NOT go overside ... agreed - but it happens.
Myself I rarely wear a LJ, why not ? Mostly because I don't even think about it. It's not laziness or not wanting to - it's I forget they are there. But that does not excuse my lack of use. I am the stupid one for not using LJ. For a number of years I was stupid enough to not have straps on the LJ's. I have no excuse. Unlike some posters on here that have found excuses they believe are valid. Bit weak the excuses really aren't they.
Crotch straps for buoyancy aids. Why ? The construction is such that it's unlikely such an aid will ride up sufficiently.
Crotch straps being awkward / hindrance to racers movement. Agreed with certain designs, such as the ones I bought for my LJ's - but simple modification made them suitable for ALL use and activity.
LJ never ridden up after jumping in. I find that misleading to others, I don't dis-believe the claims, but would ask that it be qualified by saying how the LJ was worn. Having seen the effects of LJ's not correctly worn, I can say without reservation a loose, poorly fitted LJ without straps is a serious risk to the wearer.
Just to labour the point : Why is it that Professional Survival Courses for Seaman make strong point about folding the arms across the chest when jumping into the water ? Simple - to help to keep LJ from riding up. (There is another advisory which is seldom mentioned outside of Professional circles ...
that is having crossed legs when hitting the water . I'll leave readers to guess why that is !! )Why do people post against the use when logic and sensibility indicates their use is better.
I agree that people still die overboard if not found quick enough. But let's take a case of a MOB who has a bad fitted LJ and it rides up. He/she cannot get it back in place and he/she drowns within a very short period of going into the water. Other person on boat comes up to cockpit some time after ... finds him / her gone ... most people have GPS and able to retrace track accurately ... they come upon the body ... Maybe it would have been within time to recover alive if the LJ hadn't caused premature drowning.
Can you live with that ? maybe it's your wife or child .... can you honestly live with that ?
Fine so we have people saying secret is to NOT go overside ... agreed - but it happens.
Myself I rarely wear a LJ, why not ? Mostly because I don't even think about it. It's not laziness or not wanting to - it's I forget they are there. But that does not excuse my lack of use. I am the stupid one for not using LJ. For a number of years I was stupid enough to not have straps on the LJ's. I have no excuse. Unlike some posters on here that have found excuses they believe are valid. Bit weak the excuses really aren't they.
planteater
Well-Known Member
I suspect that life jackets start to ride up when the casualty becomes weak or loses consciousness. I believe this was one of the conclusions of the Ouzo report.
I've only tested my LJ once, when I tipped an overloaded tender. Once the cold shock wore off I realised I could stand up and walked back to the shore!
The auto jacket worked perfectly but it wasn't much of a test. All over in around 2 minutes. I guess most poster here have only relied on their LJs for short periods. It would be interesting to hear from anyone who has been bobbing around for a significant time awaiting rescue.
I've only tested my LJ once, when I tipped an overloaded tender. Once the cold shock wore off I realised I could stand up and walked back to the shore!
The auto jacket worked perfectly but it wasn't much of a test. All over in around 2 minutes. I guess most poster here have only relied on their LJs for short periods. It would be interesting to hear from anyone who has been bobbing around for a significant time awaiting rescue.
Refueler
Well-Known Member
I wondered when someone would mention Ouzo. Conclusions ? There are no definite conclusions - it's all supposition / speculation apart from fact boat was lost and 3 men died. Sorry to see Ouzo mentioned. IMHO is not relevant to this thread.
Why would a LJ ride up later after going in ? No the usual monent a LJ rides up is the hitting of water when going in ... body is heavy weight going down, LJ is buoyancy trying to stay above water ... once person is in water - equilibrium is reached.
dmmbruce
Well-Known Member
Another outfit that does what you want is SeaSafe. These are used by Pilots, and CG, I think. I find mine good, tho heavy. But I can't swim (I sink!) and I have a bad heart. Leg straps are built in and work fine.
Mind you, since I usually sail single handed, perhaps this is academic in my case!
Try http://www.seasafe.co.uk/
Mike
PetiteFleur
Well-Known Member
I agree, I admit to always wearing a LJ when in the dinghy(it's a 10minute run in the dinghy to my mooring). I then usually take it off when on board. However I always wear it at night, with a lifeline, and children always wear them when on board, but only whilst sailing.
Several people have been drowned when falling out of dinghies, particularly after an evening in the pub.
I don't bother with those straps for 4 reasons:
The vast majority of French yachting crew don't don't bother wearing life jackets at all, in fact you can spot the Brits in any Bretton marina because they stand out kitted up with their life jackets. In all matters I assume the French nation makes superior decisions until I see conclusive evidence otherwise.
If I do fall in I want maximum mobility during the first critical 2 minutes, so I don't expect to inflate the thing until the crew have obviously given up trying to assist me. In which case rapid death is probably a good thing.
I believe all yachting safety gadgets create the illusion of MOB serviverbility and reduce a crew's essential focus of not going overboard.
The US CG stats quoted above confirm the above.
The vast majority of French yachting crew don't don't bother wearing life jackets at all, in fact you can spot the Brits in any Bretton marina because they stand out kitted up with their life jackets. In all matters I assume the French nation makes superior decisions until I see conclusive evidence otherwise.
If I do fall in I want maximum mobility during the first critical 2 minutes, so I don't expect to inflate the thing until the crew have obviously given up trying to assist me. In which case rapid death is probably a good thing.
I believe all yachting safety gadgets create the illusion of MOB serviverbility and reduce a crew's essential focus of not going overboard.
The US CG stats quoted above confirm the above.
Gwylan
Well-Known Member
On the basis of this analysis I will not be going to work tomorrow - looks like a seriously dangerous place to be
fishermantwo
Well-Known Member
No the jackets can ride up because there is a gap from the waist band to the armpit. Military spec inflatable jackets have a waistcoat that fits snugly under the armpits. Comfortable to wear and impossible to ride up. You could be dead and the jacket would still fit properly.
If you are going to wear a jacket it may as well be designed right. Not much on the market I see that looks the part, most should be banned as unsafe. Jackets that need crotch straps are obviously badly designed and built down to a price.
Military jackets will also support a body with out being inflated which is another point I have against the crop of yachty stuff on the market. I am a bit against relying on anything that has to be inflated. My choice would always be the padded foam waist coat style buoyancy aid that will never fail.