Cruising Yachts and Blade Jibs Instead of A Genoa

[Deleted member 36384]

On another thread its been suggested by Flaming that a Blade Jib is a good choice for cruising yachts; indeed Flaming advises that new racing yachts haven't had Genoas for years now.

It is my plan by the end of next year to replace all the sails on my tub. So, on a Rival 41C, Masthead Rig, 10 Tonne at 41' LOA, 36' LWL, cutter rigged, would cruising laminate blade jibs be a good idea on the inner and outer forestays; main would also be in a cruising laminate. I think they would be when the wind gets up into No3 territory, so I am really querying low wind performance where I currently believe a big Genoa would be better.

What do think about cruising and blades in general and doing away with big Genoas? Clearly, the Rival weight and hull shape reflects old design and technology and I think blade jibs would not work on this type of hull design, however, maybe it would, as Flaming suggests VMG is likely to be better, although the Rival heels over and doesn't have the form stability of a fat arsed yacht.

I am intrigued.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

its ok for flaming to say that but a/ modern racers have been designed round a big main small jib sail plan and b/ its a fashion just like fractional rigs.

your boat like mine has been designed to have a big genoa. put a blade jib there and you will be undercanvassed in light winds. maybe that doesnt matter on an old rival that is hardly a performance machine but you need to bear that in mind.

OTOH in heavy winds the boat will perform better than it would with a reefed 150 genny.

hull shape is irrelevant.

 

[jac]

IIRC IOR encouraged the use of large Genoas as the overlap was rated much more generously than it should have been. - it was effectively "free" sail area. Freed from rule constraints it would not have been so fashionable.

Bosun in right though, if you suddenly go from a 135% genoa or larger to something that is maybe 85% then how are you going to make up the difference.

You may get some from going fully battened Main with a larger roach but not as much as you will lose.

My suggestion would be a rolling Yankee type where minimum rolls have a big impact on sail area to cover the higher wind speeds , supplemented by a decent asymmetric for low wind.

 

[Kurrawong_Kid]

I put a blade jib on my Centurion 32, about 110%, and it proved a smashing sail. Sure the boat was a bit underpowered in F3 but so what. I could fly it F4-F7, reefed as necessary and the yacht, similar to a Rival, sailed really well. I poled it out downwind unless I flew the spinnaker (only in F2-3!)

 

[snooks]

As others have said your boat (and mine) is from an era when 120%+ genoas were the norm, so the sail area, mast position and rig were all designed around a big head sail.

Nowadays boats are designed around a big mainsail.

You have what you have, I looked into the posibility for about 10 minutes. If your genoa tracks go up to and forward of your shrouds, you have a chance. If not you'll have to fit them.....that was as far as I got

 

[flaming]

When I wrote that I was mainly thinking how mad it is for designers of new family cruising boats to still be penning masthead genoa rigs. Who exactly do they think is going to be grinding the thing in!? I was also questioning the assertion made by another poster that his large overlapping Dacron sail was faster than the blade laminate. Though I am mostly thinking about windward performance, on a reach the overlapper will be faster for sure until it's overpowered. Upwind I think shape is more important than area, and your Dacron sail may have great shape on day 1, but it won't in season 3, or 4 or....

As with absolutely everything else in yacht design, it is a compromise. Yes you will be underpowered in light winds, but with the advances in sail design probably less than you might think. To make a blade jib work upwind in light winds it is best to have a barberhauler system. This means that you can get a very powerful curved shape into the sail, but still sheet it quite close and get some pointing.

I would add the caveat that all my experience with making this change is on a 2004 design with fractional rig (but initially big genoas) that we have gone to just blade jibs. Whether it would work on an older, even more headsail biased, design that is heavier to boot is another question.

As with all things like this though, the best bet is to speak to your sailmaker.

 

[davidfox]

As others have said your boat (and mine) is from an era when 120%+ genoas were the norm, so the sail area, mast position and rig were all designed around a big head sail.

Nowadays boats are designed around a big mainsail.

You have what you have, I looked into the posibility for about 10 minutes. If your genoa tracks go up to and forward of your shrouds, you have a chance. If not you'll have to fit them.....that was as far as I got

My 120% genoa is so knackered that I got hold of jib 2nd hand from a sailmaker. I had to fit barber haulers on the outer shrouds to get anything like the correct angle and whilst far from perfect it sets really well, the difference in speed is marginal compared to the bag of washing I used to put up. It has transformed tacking which is now easy and in the strong winds that we have been experiencing in the last couple of years has made handling much less of a drama. Admittedly I have a strop at the head of the sail to make it fit, for my sort of sailing it works well.

 

[oldbilbo]

.....would cruising laminate blade jibs be a good idea on the inner and outer forestays....

I had built and used a hank-on non-overlapping ( blade?) jib for heavy weather, for a Rival 34. This set on a removable inner stay, and was very effective from F4+ ....which was the intention.

Something like this....

I was conscious of inefficient sheeting angles if the outboard genoa tracks were used, and so was able to fit a substantial eyebolt through the forward end of each handrail, replacing the original bolt/nut/washers. A pair of single sheaveblocks attached with Wichard snaplinks ( soft shackles would be better/cheaper ), and simple in/outhauls were easily added. The height of the clew was adjustable by halyard and tack purchase, sufficient to keep the vertical sheet-lead at an acceptable angle.

This worked well.

The single sheaveblocks clipped to the eyebolts had beckets, so I trialled a double-purchase setup using a double block at the sail's clew, thus reducing the sheet load on the cockpit winch/jammer. This also was effective, but may be considered OTT.

 

[Seajet]

I suppose my boat 7/8ths rig designed in 1973 was still meant for the overlapping genoa, but I have found that a blade jib gives significantly better performance in all but the lightest winds.

In a perfect world I'd have a chute on a furler as well but this is difficult to organise so I have to set it by hand.

 

[flaming]

Just remembered this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51pFTtlysJw

If you look at the part from about 1.30 to 2.30, you'll see us stay about even with the 4 yachts to leeward. 3 of those 4 were designed with, and were using, Genoas. Admittedly not masthead rig style genoas, but it does give you some idea of what a decent blade jib and bareberhaulers can do upwind in the light in comparison. TWS was never above about 8 knots on this day.

 

[Mrnotming]

Just met some charterers of Hanse brand yachts in Ste.Maxime from Ireland of the good winds!Howth Yacht Club to be precise.Two Hanses from Seaway charters, one 45 ish and one 32.They complained that the boats were issued with effectively storm jibs, and were not best pleased in the light conditions encountered.
So it looks like the OP's with the inner forestay/roller idea and a bullet proof 3/4 have the right idea.
It will only be used in anger anyway,so should last for yonks whilst the Genoa maybe 120% does most of the day to day stuff.
It is either too light in the Med or untenable mostly.I did have a blade when on the French west coast, but it was Mylar and blew to ribbons.Hopefully some Pentax next time will stand getting out of Brest in a F7.
Good sailing and boating to all.

 

[Seajet]

Watching that video reminded me how superior tillers are whenever possible !

 

[flaming]

Watching that video reminded me how superior tillers are whenever possible !

Upwind yes. Downwind in a blow, not on that boat thanks.

 

[oldvarnish]

For cruising, I don't think you can beat a cutter rig with a yankee and staysail. For me, there's no going back.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Thanks for the comments. Plenty of food for thought on this subject. I am still deciding whether to get rid of the roller reefing gear or not; base plan is yes, get rid of it and build up the sail wardrobe again.

I'll need to read up some more on this and talk to a sail maker too as advised. Maybe I'll just change the Rival out for something more modern, which is also rattling around my head.

Fair Winds,

BlowingOldBoots

 

[Seajet]

I have had a masthead rigged racer / cruiser ( in her time ! ) as well as my ever faithful 7/8th rig Anderson 22.

On the Anderson I have no hesitation recommending separate hanked on sails for efficiency ( and maybe even fun ! ), one can tuck a replacement headsail under one's arm and stroll forward.

On the masthead rigged Carter 30 the headsails were relatively huge and heavy, as I usually sail with 1 girlfriend crew I would have given anything for a good roller headsail but couldn't afford to change.

With a roller headsail I would absolutely have to have the facitlity to set a separate storm jib.

 

[Blueboatman]

BlowingOldBoots.
A sailing friend has a sistership to yours with which he has clocked up so many pond crossings, and runs a winning J boat, that you have to assume he knows a bit about what works best. And he has roller furling, Hood cruising sails, and a high cut yankee and inner staysail, three reef slab main. Apparently the bluff bow can need a bit of drive in a blow when working to windward..

I have detachable inner forestay, a reefable blade in a jiffy bag all hanked on, sheets n all, so it is v easy to peel off downwind in a blow, rig and hoist the staysail (from the cockpit), barber haul it taut to the mast foot with a secondary tackle led to the cockpit, and then roll away the genoa and come back up on to the wind.. The R36 has quite a fine bow entry tho so drives well upwind on a flat sail..

 

[rotrax]

For cruising, I don't think you can beat a cutter rig with a yankee and staysail. For me, there's no going back.

Agree 100%! First mate and I invariably sail by ourselves, no crew, and I was begining to find the standard 135% genoa fitted to our boat a bit of a handfull to put away. Got those nice chaps at Crusader to supply a 100% high cut yankee. The boat seems no slower and the new sail is a doddle to handle now. You may ask about light wind performance-well, we did not have any. Unless we have an absolute minimum of 10 knts. true it was never worth hoisting sail-all they did was slap and bang about. We have a bigish Yanmar so we use that. The self tacking staysail appears to set better now too. All in all, a real result for the sailing we do. Remember, in UK waters it seems we have too much or too little wind-its rarely thr right amount or direction!

 

[gardenshed]

I suggest a chat with John Highcock at Saturn Sails or Chris Owen (chrisowen@sailtrimcoach.com)
I had a similar thought for my boat, i.e. go from a 140/150% genoa to a 110% sail which would not need to be reefed until much later.
Chris surveyed the boat and rig and recommended a 130% genoa, foam luff, and to use Hydranet cloth, triradial cut. The main was also tri radial hydranet and full length battens. Very pleased with the results
Would i do the same again?
Probably. The headsail has stood up really well and has held its shape. With the foam luff, it also gives a good shape when rolled, even in strong winds (e.g. Sunday of the Round Mull Race 2010). Key is a really good cloth, well cut so a cruising laminate or hyrdanet is a must.
Sail on a furler vs hanks/luff groove: With a good furler, there is no doubt that for 90% of the time this is the solution. My intention is that for the windiest of conditions, I'll fit an inner foretsay with a smaller storm jib (not intended to be used as a cutter rig) so that the genoa is rolled away and a properly cut heavy wind sail is then set with the CoP low to the deck. Short handed on a 40 ft boat it would be no joke wrestling with a sail change, whether a blade to a storm jib or a genoa to a balde. Been there, got the T-shirt and this is not something that I'd do single/double handed of family cruising
Proof of this: look at the open 40's, open 60's, ocean going Trimarans etc. All use furling headsails
If I was racing the boat a lot with a crew, then I'd consider a sail wardrobe but with the new cruising laminates and better cloths, not needed. Also think of the space saved on board and what you do with a wet sail that has just been taken down.
10T of Rival 41....less sails but spend on high quality cloth and a good design from a decent sailmaker.

 

[onesea]

I have an old 3/4 tonner and sailed the first year with what she had...

We now have bought new number 3, keeping the tough luff not going roller furling.

We carry a No 1 for winds sub 12-15 knots and carry the No 3 above that. No 2 has come off the boat, we just never used it.

IMHO different boats different strokes a heavier boat will probably want the extra sail area for drive. Lighter boats are easier to drive so need less power...
Although it does seem there is more awareness of better cut well trimmed sails mattering more than actual sail area...