Cruising chute - am I missing the point?

[fredrussell]

I recently bought a cruising chute (on here - cheers Richard) and have now tried it a couple of times with not a huge amount of success. I found that on a beam reach, or just aft of that, it would fill well but didn’t offer a noticeable performance hike over my 135% (new) genoa.
On a broad reach I had difficulty in keeping it full - the luff would collapse usually and the best way I found to remedy this was to come round to a beam reach again. This being a downwind sail I was a bit surprised to have this difficulty - but I am a total newcomer to ‘coloured’ sails and would welcome a few tips and I do have a couple of questions, so…

…Would a bow sprit be a worthwhile addition? I’m sure I could jury rig one using the spinny pole. I imagine this would bring the chute out of the lee of the main a bit.

When reaching in light airs, should a cruising chute give greater speed than a 135% genoa?

On a broad reach, where should the clew ideally be in relation,say, to mast? Well forward of it? Up nearly level with forestay?

Tighter luff for beam reach, ease of tack line for broad reach, yes? But does halyard like to be freed off too to bring sail forward a bit?

Any tips gratefully received. Obviously, one can’t expect to master a sail on first or second outing, but I was a bit underwhelmed by the whole experience. Conditions both days were 10 knots or so of breeze, very little swell

 

[fredrussell]

Just to add, I was using as a guide the following bit of instruction, snaffled off the web. Is this a reasonable summary of chute use? :-


Trimming a cruising spinnaker is simplicity itself. The tack pendant controls the sail’s shape, and the sheet controls the sail's angle to the wind. The sail can be flown just as you would a spinnaker, with the wind anywhere from about 75 degrees off the bow to dead on the stern.

REACHING: To sail on a beam reach, tighten the tack pendant to lower the sail's tack. This pulls the draft of the sail forward, which allows you to sail closer to the wind. Conversely, the higher the tack, the better the sail’s shape will be for sailing at broader angles. The tack should always be set somewhat lower than the clew.
The sheet should be eased as much as possible without letting the sail collapse. This will insure that the sail is at the optimum angle to the wind, and that the sail is as free as possible from the mainsail’s wind shadow.
After setting the boat on course, ease the sheet until a curl appears along the luff of the sail. Then adjust the tack pendant so that the clew is a little higher than the tack. The top horizontal panel should be parallel to the horizon.
As the wind moves aft, the sheet and tack pendant are eased to keep maximum sail area projected to the wind and to keep the sail in the most efficient shape.

 

[greeny]

Please don't think I'm being a smart arse but my first thought is, is it big enough for your boat? All the other things you mention can be part of the problem but size matters. You mention you bought it as second user so is it the optimum size.

 

[jamie N]

Can you try to use it as a spinnaker perhaps, to get it into some wind and out of the lee of your main?
I've only used a spinnaker, so this might appear dumb.

 

[savageseadog]

Asymmetrics have a very wide performance range. They can be multi panelled, tri radial all the way down to very simple cross cut. They will be designed to work optimally within a range of apparent wind angles.
Assuming the sail is about the right size, it would pay to trying different wind angles, while sheeting to suit. You may find it will only really perform over a very small range of angles.
I have found that keeping an asymmetric working optimally for long periods requires a lot of concentration.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Asymmetrics have a very wide performance range. They can be multi panelled, tri radial all the way down to very simple cross cut. They will be designed to work optimally within a range of apparent wind angles.
Assuming the sail is about the right size, it would pay to trying different wind angles, while sheeting to suit. You may find it will only really perform over a very small range of angles.
I have found that keeping an asymmetric working optimally for long periods requires a lot of concentration.

This is pretty much what I think. We are asymetric powered, downwind. We have a bowsprit, but otherwise you could call it a cruising chute if you like. It has a narrow wind angle, but suits the boat so it's not an issue. 75-90 degrees apparent. Fred’s angles might well be different, but it’s not always a big tolerance window. Ours also likes a lot of sheet attention, especially if the helm is playing the gusts. I feel she might be getting her own back on me these days.

 

[Tranona]

It does depend on what the sail was designed for. "cruising chute" is just a generic term that covers a wide range of variables. In general they work best on fractional rigs with non overlapping headsails where they can be designed to fill in that gap between around 80-150 degrees off the wind. They are less attractive if you already have a big genoa which will perform well when the wind is well abaft the beam. Problem with buying a used sail of this type is that you don't know what the brief was when it was designed so the best you can do is experiment to find out the angles where it is effective. Having a bowsprit to move it into cleaner air may well improve its effectiveness.

 

[fredrussell]

Thanks to all. Plenty to work with there. It’s early days as yet and am enjoying playing with a new sail. I hadn’t realised they could be cut to favour certain wind angles - but that certainly makes sense after my trials so far.

 

[Never Grumble]

I am new to using my cruising chute, but on an AWB its certainly bigger than my large overlapping Genoa. I am also told that the tack line angle position may have some bearing and that if you use a tack strap/ATN tacker/whatever you call this? Then you should be able to use your cruising chute on a great range of angles, I haven't done that yet so cant confirm.

 

[ithet]

Are you referring to true wind when you say Beam Reach and Broad Reach? In the sort of winds when you will be using your asymmetric, the speed increase it gives will move your apparent wind forward enough to make a broad reach seem like a beam reach. I think you might be sailing broader than you think. Having said that, often it is necessary to tack downwind under an asymmetric if a main is being flown.

 

[Daydream believer]

I cannot run down wind very successfully with my cruising chute unless it is light winds & a flat sea. Simply because it will not hold up properly. Most of it is covered by the mainsail. As far as i am concerned one has to tack down wind in the same way that you see dinghies with asymetrics when they are racing.
If you want to run dead down wind then you need a proper spinnaker.
I never play the halyard but I do play the down haul a lot. I have to to get a decent set & i have to change course a lot. Pretty useless sail really. Mine doubles the sail area of the boat & because I have to beam reach it tends to over power the boat. That means that in a gust I have to lower it. With a spinnaker one can keep it up longer because the wind can be held dead aft. But then I spent years as foredeck crew & am a spinnaker man really.

 

[savageseadog]

For downwind it's possible to pole out an' asymmetric

 

[alahol2]

For dead downwind sailing the cruising chute works well if 'goose winged'.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

Love mine. The advise you pasted is exactly what I do. I don't use it in more that 12kt true as the Genoa is as good but in lighter winds it's 1-2 kt faster than the Genoa.

 

[flaming]

Are you referring to true wind when you say Beam Reach and Broad Reach? In the sort of winds when you will be using your asymmetric, the speed increase it gives will move your apparent wind forward enough to make a broad reach seem like a beam reach. I think you might be sailing broader than you think. Having said that, often it is necessary to tack downwind under an asymmetric if a main is being flown.

This was exactly my 1st thought.

Exactly as said, as you accelerate you drag the apparent forward. For example, in 6kts of TWS my best downwind VMG is at140 TWA, however, when I do this my apparent is on the beam. In 12kts TWS my best downwind VMG is at about 165 TWA, but the apparent is probably more like 140ish. Which feels very different.

If you have light winds, then it doesn't matter what sort of kite you have, A-sail, cruising chute or Symmetrical, it will all go a bit floppy and horrible if you try to sail too low. If you have a set of integrated instruments, set one to TWA and try these angles as a starter for 10 to get downwind.
140 in 6 kts (true)
145 in 8 kts
150 in 10 kts
160 in 12+.

If anything I've probably overestimated how low you can get. If in doubt sail a bit higher than this.

I wouldn't start easing the tackline until about 10kts TWS, maybe more.

But... You said you had a spinnaker pole.... The best way to get downwind with a cruising chute is to pole the tack back with the spinnaker pole. Keep the pole quite low, and keep tension with the tackline, but this really does work very well.

 

[fredrussell]

The true/apparent wind difference that a few of you mention is a point well made. I have no wind instrument on my boat so all wind angles I’ve mentioned are apparent. So what I’ve described as a beam reach would have been a broad reach ‘true’. And what I perceived as a broad reach would have been not far off a run I suppose once I accelerated. As ithnet suggests - I was probably sailing broader than I think. I look forward to putting this advice into practice.

 

[DJE]

But... You said you had a spinnaker pole.... The best way to get downwind with a cruising chute is to pole the tack back with the spinnaker pole. Keep the pole quite low, and keep tension with the tackline, but this really does work very well.

That's how we used to do it on our Sadler 29. But it took a bit of setting up and gybing was complicated. If there was room and time it was easier to sail higher without the pole and put a few more gybes in.

 

[fredrussell]

But... You said you had a spinnaker pole.... The best way to get downwind with a cruising chute is to pole the tack back with the spinnaker pole. Keep the pole quite low, and keep tension with the tackline, but this really does work very well.

Bit confused by this Flaming, can you expand on it a bit?

DJE, is that the tack or clew pole is attached to?

Edit: I see now, it’s the tack. Cheers for pic, very interesting technique.

 

[Daydream believer]

That's how we used to do it on our Sadler 29. But it took a bit of setting up and gybing was complicated. If there was room and time it was easier to sail higher without the pole and put a few more gybes in.

If I tried to do that the pole would be just above the guard rail because I have a fairly big roach in the luff. I assume that you have a fairly straight luff or it is fairly short to start with. Mine is set with the tack just below the pulpit & I can ease it off about 3 feet. But then the luff is very round.

 

[ianat182]

As I recall the pole is attached to the Guy or clew as for a spinnaker. Tighten and slacken the tack line to raise or lower to trim, as already mentioned lowering the tack tightens the luff; the the trimming is as for a spinnaker - a slight curling to the luff the closest she goes . slackening the tack line will cause the sail to lift the bow as the sail does fill more fully.