Cruising a racing boat

[roblpm]

Bit of a wannabe thread....... 5 years time...............

So looking at the results from Scottish Series, East Coast Sailing Festival (ie Scotland), Rorc (would like to do 2 handed in the future) it appears to me that the cruiser/racer is a dieing breed?

All jpk, j boat, sunfast and not much else.

So my question is that if one was racing most of the time but then had the opportunity to cruise for a month a year (UK, med, Atlantic) which would be the least worst cruising boat?!

I think 36 feet tops, as few crew as possible for round the cans. To be bought in 5 years time at 10 years old so J112e probably out!!

 

[lpdsn]

Bit of a wannabe thread....... 5 years time...............

So looking at the results from Scottish Series, East Coast Sailing Festival (ie Scotland), Rorc (would like to do 2 handed in the future) it appears to me that the cruiser/racer is a dieing breed?

All jpk, j boat, sunfast and not much else.

So my question is that if one was racing most of the time but then had the opportunity to cruise for a month a year (UK, med, Atlantic) which would be the least worst cruising boat?!

I think 36 feet tops, as few crew as possible for round the cans. To be bought in 5 years time at 10 years old so J112e probably out!!

It's usually a case of which cruiser makes the least worse racer. It's not a matter of the extra weight of cushions, galley etc, but the layout of the cockpit that is the biggest handicap.

If your main and headsail trimmers are always having to fight each other for space or at least make compromises to how effectively they can do their jobs, that will be costing you time round the cans. Similarly if the headsail trimmer has to face aft to trim. Or if the kicker/outhaul/cunningham can't all be easily controlled by someone on the rail, or coming off the rail briefly, on either tack. And what about winches when the spinnaker is up? Are there too few or too poorly arranged for all the lines.

Except in light airs, it is usually not a case of as few crew as possible around the cans. If you needed fewer crew, your IRC cert would say so. You really need your boat handling to be slick to win in inshore racing.

Then for offshore racing or short-handed racing you have different optimal set ups.

Seriously consider just getting a smaller racer and using the money saved to charter a cruiser occasionally.

That said, I always reckoned the X-34 rated well under IRC.

 

[roblpm]

It's usually a case of which cruiser makes the least worse racer. It's not a matter of the extra weight of cushions, galley etc, but the layout of the cockpit that is the biggest handicap.

If your main and headsail trimmers are always having to fight each other for space or at least make compromises to how effectively they can do their jobs, that will be costing you time round the cans. Similarly if the headsail trimmer has to face aft to trim. Or if the kicker/outhaul/cunningham can't all be easily controlled by someone on the rail, or coming off the rail briefly, on either tack. And what about winches when the spinnaker is up? Are there too few or too poorly arranged for all the lines.

Except in light airs, it is usually not a case of as few crew as possible around the cans. If you needed fewer crew, your IRC cert would say so. You really need your boat handling to be slick to win in inshore racing.

Then for offshore racing or short-handed racing you have different optimal set ups.

Seriously consider just getting a smaller racer and using the money saved to charter a cruiser occasionally.

That said, I always reckoned the X-34 rated well under IRC.

Hmmm no magic bullet!

Problem with chartering for cruising is that i really want to go places! 2 weeks on a cat in the Caribbean isn't really my thing (not that o have ever done it!!).

 

[lpdsn]

Hmmm no magic bullet!

Problem with chartering for cruising is that i really want to go places! 2 weeks on a cat in the Caribbean isn't really my thing (not that o have ever done it!!).

It's hard to imagine a cruiser-racer that would make a good round-the-cans racer and long-distance cruiser. The sort of thing where you take the laminate racing sails ashore and re-fit the solar panels and wind-genny.

Maybe something like an Arcona (although the only ones I've been aboard it's been a case of winding in the genny facing aft). I know of a Ker 11.3 that did the ARC, but I think they were fully crewed and treated it as an offshore race. And it seems sailing schools had been taking 40.7s back and forth across the Atlantic, but that may have come to an end now.

 

[ziacek]

Pronavia 38?

 

[Birdseye]

No it wasn't deleted Grrrh! Anyway if you cannot competitively race a cruiser under handicaps then maybe the answer is one design. Sigma 33 or something more modern

 

[lpdsn]

No it wasn't deleted Grrrh! Anyway if you cannot competitively race a cruiser under handicaps then maybe the answer is one design. Sigma 33 or something more modern

The Sigma 33 has a surprisingly low AVS, so maybe not the best bet for a long distance cruiser. I don't even think they pass the entry criteria for the Fastnet these days.

 

[DFL1010]

Better tell the blokes who raced 33s in the Fastnet last week in it then!

I suppose it all depends on what you want from a cruiser. I'd be more than happy to cruise a Sunfast/JPK/Xp/Pogo/similar (and I'd consider the Jeanneaus, X and JPK as quite cruisy for a racer) as I'd happily trade some comfort for speed. Others wouldn't want to step foot on anything less than a 60-foot Rassy.

Of course, some show that anything can be cruised.

 

[lpdsn]

Better tell the blokes who raced 33s in the Fastnet last week in it then!

Good to hear they were still going. I based the comments on a debate a mate was having with RORC about entering a Sigma 33 a few years ago when he was told he didn't meet the stability criteria. I don't think he pushed that hard, so maybe later on someone else did.

 

[roblpm]

Better tell the blokes who raced 33s in the Fastnet last week in it then!

I suppose it all depends on what you want from a cruiser. I'd be more than happy to cruise a Sunfast/JPK/Xp/Pogo/similar (and I'd consider the Jeanneaus, X and JPK as quite cruisy for a racer) as I'd happily trade some comfort for speed. Others wouldn't want to step foot on anything less than a 60-foot Rassy.

Of course, some show that anything can be cruised.

Good stuff, this is more like it! A bit of fighting talk!!

Not sure about the open 40, were they the ones in Yachting World with the tiny kids??!!

 

[Keen_Ed]

Bit of a wannabe thread....... 5 years time...............

So looking at the results from Scottish Series, East Coast Sailing Festival (ie Scotland), Rorc (would like to do 2 handed in the future) it appears to me that the cruiser/racer is a dieing breed?

All jpk, j boat, sunfast and not much else.

So my question is that if one was racing most of the time but then had the opportunity to cruise for a month a year (UK, med, Atlantic) which would be the least worst cruising boat?!

I think 36 feet tops, as few crew as possible for round the cans. To be bought in 5 years time at 10 years old so J112e probably out!!

I would argue that in the 25-35' range, it's all cruiser racers. If a racing boat is a TP52/Ker40 type, stripped out, then things like A jpk 1010 are very cruisable.

 

[roblpm]

I would argue that in the 25-35' range, it's all cruiser racers. If a racing boat is a TP52/Ker40 type, stripped out, then things like A jpk 1010 are very cruisable.

Are you thinking a j109 is a cruiser racer? Quite a few first 36.7?

 

[Keen_Ed]

J109 is absolutely a cruiser racer

 

[Birdseye]

The point here is that any practical cruise boat wont compete against a stripped out pure racer under handicaps. But neither will that race boat cruise. Yet there are plenty of examples of one make racing in boats that can cruise if not ideal cruising boats. Everything from the challenge boats down wards. Key issue is finding a good one make fleet. I believe that the Contessa 32 still is one

 

[Keen_Ed]

The point here is that any practical cruise boat wont compete against a stripped out pure racer under handicaps. But neither will that race boat cruise. Yet there are plenty of examples of one make racing in boats that can cruise if not ideal cruising boats. Everything from the challenge boats down wards. Key issue is finding a good one make fleet. I believe that the Contessa 32 still is one

Well, what I consider to be pure race boats get so hammered on IRC that people don't really buy them. Things like Farr 30s, Classe 9.50, Farr280, ORC GP33 etc.

 

[DFL1010]

Not entirely sure I could agree with you there. IRC doesn't like people stripping the interior - most things have to stay onboard. However, things that don't have to be there are the cruising things: food, full tanks, books, extra kit bags, etc etc. So, you can either not have them at all (not ideal for cruising), take them on and off each time (a complete faff), or live with the weight (and loss of performance)*.

If you choose to leave them on, I'd suggest that handicap racing would be much better than OD: the key to OD racing is clear air. If you've a bit too much stuff down below, then even winning the start will soon count for nought, and the lighter boats will catch you and put you and gas on you. The other downside to OD is the arms races that can soon crop up to get one boat bow-forward.
However, if you're in a h'cap fleet, the super quick boys will be well away, the slow ones will be behind you, and you'll (hopefully) be in the middle in clear air.


*The exception to this is if you sail under a performance-based stats-driven handicap (we have a few odd'uns here in Falmouth), where one's loss of performance due to weight will/should be countered by a change in the h'cap. Another story for another day, that one probably, though.

 

[DFL1010]

Well, what I consider to be pure race boats get so hammered on IRC that people don't really buy them. Things like Farr 30s, Classe 9.50, Farr280, ORC GP33 etc.

That's why they invented the HPR, which has taken off exactly the way that bricks don't (apologies to DA). I think IRC being nicer to the 40s (Ker, Carkeek, HH42 etc) seems to have taken the wind out of their sails, as t'wer.

 

[Resolution]

I don't think you are giving enough weight to the requirements of a serious cruiser. You mentioned four weeks in , among others, the Med. Well I have spent several months cruising in the Med during the past two years and some kit is essential for enjoyable survival. Start with furling genoa, a bimini, holding tank, large water tanks, a decent anchor and at least sixty metres of chain, swimming ladder, passerelle etc etc. Plus a number of spares (I never realised how heavy a water pump is until I packed two spares for our three pumps / macerators) , tools and some almanacs. If you just hop into your racing J109 with a bag load of cruising extras you will soon find out how many more modifications are needed. It can be done, I am berthed next to a J122 which has been fully converted and makes a good fast cruiser. But no way could it ever get back into racing trim.

 

[Birdseye]

That is right but little of what you mention cannot be removed. Big water tanks weigh little when empty. Anchors and chain can be left ashore. We do the removal job every winter and in truth its quite useful at getting rid of rubbish. But we still couldnt hope to compete with a race boat which invariably has much better kit

 

[tcm]

The point here is that any practical cruise boat wont compete against a stripped out pure racer under handicaps. But neither will that race boat cruise. Yet there are plenty of examples of one make racing in boats that can cruise if not ideal cruising boats. Everything from the challenge boats down wards. Key issue is finding a good one make fleet. I believe that the Contessa 32 still is one

Yeah, contessa 32 over in carib a few years ago swept the local regattas....