Cruise to France - Q flag / customs?

[Sybarite]

If they do a search you can object to them going into the cabins because of privacy laws. They need a court order for that.

I don't think they do need a court warrant... [/QUOTE]


C. cass. (Ch. com.), 12 février 2002

Des agents des douanes s’étant présentés à bord d’un navire de plaisance battant pavillon britannique et amarré dans un port français et, y ayant découvert deux armes de la quatrième catégorie, un procès-verbal d’infraction a été dressé et il a été procédé à la saisie des armes et du navire. Il ne peut être reproché à l’arrêt attaqué d’avoir annulé le procès-verbal et la saisie après avoir constaté que le navire était destiné à la croisière de plaisance, qu’il était aménagé dans ce but et comportait des appartements privés pour les passagers et des cabines pour les membres de l’équipage, qu’il disposait ainsi d’aménagements intérieurs propres à assurer le confort et l’intimité des occupants, et que les armes avaient été découvertes dans l’équipet surmontant la couchette et dans la couchette elle-même d’un compartiment servant habituellement et privativement à un des membres de l’équipage. La Cour d’appel a pu en déduire que la visite litigieuse de ces lieux privés relevait de l’art. 64 C. douanes et non des art. 60 et 63 du même Code et aurait dû être autorisée au préalable par le président du Tribunal de grande instance. (Pourvoi c. Rennes (2e Ch.), 24 mars 1999)

 

[LadyInBed]

Thanks Quiddle.

Given that that is the very marina I am going to, was the customs office at the marina? I will be tight for time to catch a flight, so I'm trying to plan ahead.

I assume that won't be your first port of call in France.
Anyhow, go to Camaret inner marina, much nicer

 

[Polly's Kettle]

I assume that won't be your first port of call in France.

It is our first port of call, hence the question regarding Q flags etc. So I ask with some trepidation ... why do you assume that??

 

[Bathdave]

I have a number of french ports surrounding me here in jersey, and I regularly pop into one or more of them.

Never been asked for papers or passports, never been asked to file any customs form or other paperwork.

My understanding is that customs and police have wide ranging powers and if asked, you need to cooperate fully, but your chances of being approached are almost non existent and there is no expectation of going to look for them.

My philosophy has been to check into the marina office, then you are 'on the record' - but marina offices are only interested in you paying the fee.

if police or customs want to come and look at you once you are on the record, it is their responsibility to come to you

 

[nortada]

The latter I believe. Which gives you a hard choice if you've got a liferaft in need of a service which probably contains out of date ones. An out of service date liferaft is probably better than no liferaft but you risk a fine by having it on board.

Think you rather miss the point, an out of date life raft is still more likely to save your life than no life raft at all!

 

[nortada]

If they do a search you can object to them going into the cabins because of privacy laws. They need a court order for that.

I don't think they do need a court warrant... And personnally I wouldn't try that trick with them, either in France or in the UK! They will take days to go through every single screw and put your boat under their custody. In France custom officers have more legal power than the police![/QUOTE]

Believe their powers are greater than/different from UK (and for that matter Portuguese) police.

 

[Poignard]

We have been sailing to France for 16 years and have spent the last 4 based there. No official has ever taken the slightest interest in us. I suppose they don't see any point in wasting time interrogating two frail elderly people in a little old boat when they can enhance their careers catching drug dealers and people smugglers

 

[han34]

Last year, pre brexit, we were visited by customs in Concarneau, they came into the cockpit, looked at our passports and SSR, filled out a form, gave us a copy and left. This year, same place Concarneau, they approached us, did not come on board, did not even bother looking at passports at all, just SSR and left. My wife said to them that last year they filled out a form and gave as a copy. Their response was that must have been somebody looking for promotion. Been in France since May, sailed Portsmouth to the Vendée so far. Nothing seems to have changed.

 

[sailor211]

I don't think they do need a court warrant... And personnally I wouldn't try that trick with them, either in France or in the UK! They will take days to go through every single screw and put your boat under their custody. In France custom officers have more legal power than the police!

Believe their powers are greater than/different from UK (and for that matter Portuguese) police.[/QUOTE]
and can include the use of rubber gloves!!

 

[LePacha]

C. cass. (Ch. com.), 12 février 2002

Des agents des douanes s’étant présentés à bord d’un navire de plaisance battant pavillon britannique et amarré dans un port français et, y ayant découvert deux armes de la quatrième catégorie, un procès-verbal d’infraction a été dressé et il a été procédé à la saisie des armes et du navire. Il ne peut être reproché à l’arrêt attaqué d’avoir annulé le procès-verbal et la saisie après avoir constaté que le navire était destiné à la croisière de plaisance, qu’il était aménagé dans ce but et comportait des appartements privés pour les passagers et des cabines pour les membres de l’équipage, qu’il disposait ainsi d’aménagements intérieurs propres à assurer le confort et l’intimité des occupants, et que les armes avaient été découvertes dans l’équipet surmontant la couchette et dans la couchette elle-même d’un compartiment servant habituellement et privativement à un des membres de l’équipage. La Cour d’appel a pu en déduire que la visite litigieuse de ces lieux privés relevait de l’art. 64 C. douanes et non des art. 60 et 63 du même Code et aurait dû être autorisée au préalable par le président du Tribunal de grande instance. (Pourvoi c. Rennes (2e Ch.), 24 mars 1999)

Hum... you will note that this is about croisiere de plaisance as a business occupation (otherwise you wouldn't have the difference being drawn in between appartements privés pour les passagers and cabines pour les membres d'équipage).
So the Cour de Cass makes a statement there only on the couchette used by one of the professional crew (I guess this is on the basis that they actually live onboard and should have an expectation of privacy as employees).
Not sure how that would translate if not within the frame of business as this is defo for a commercial activity.

That being said, if nothing to hide, better to let them have a look as long as they don't trash the place and behave, than trying to be a pain - you don't want them to start looking at everything single thing on your vessel which would take hours, and would surely lead anyway to a fine for whatever reason...

 

[[3889]]

We have been sailing to France for 16 years and have spent the last 4 based there.

Me too and been boarded 3 times: anchored off Houat, Le Palais and L'Aberwrach (March this year). 3 or 4 Douaniere gave the deck area a thorough search, checked crew passport details by phone and went through ship's papers. The cabins were, to my surprise, left untouched so there may be something to the privacy thing.

 

[Sybarite]

Hum... you will note that this is about croisiere de plaisance as a business occupation (otherwise you wouldn't have the difference being drawn in between appartements privés pour les passagers and cabines pour les membres d'équipage).
So the Cour de Cass makes a statement there only on the couchette used by one of the professional crew (I guess this is on the basis that they actually live onboard and should have an expectation of privacy as employees).
Not sure how that would translate if not within the frame of business as this is defo for a commercial activity.

That being said, if nothing to hide, better to let them have a look as long as they don't trash the place and behave, than trying to be a pain - you don't want them to start looking at everything single thing on your vessel which would take hours, and would surely lead anyway to a fine for whatever reason...

I quoted this example as it was the first one which came to hand but I have seen others which apply to a simple sailing vessel. The overriding principle is that once you are on board on a cruise the boat is your domicile and, as such you are entitled to a dregree of privacy. However there are exceptions eg they are acting on direct information or they catch you in "flagrant délit", and to delay an intervention might give one the opportunity to get rid of the evidence.

Douaniers have no right to exceed their powers and a polite reminder I would think would make them reflect that maybe the person in question knew the law and that they could posibly end up in trouble. Any evidence they found would be inadmissable if procedures weren't respected.

This said the many visits I have had from the Douane have mainly been courteous and good-humoured.

 

[laika]

We might be heading to France this week or next so I'll ask again wherever we end up and report back.

Mildly amused "non" from the night desk guy at port chantereyne this evening when I asked if it was necessary to complete a crew list for entry into the Schengen area. Of course with my dodgy french there's all sorts of ways that question could have been misinterpreted....

 

[Cantata]

Cruising Channel coast of France right now. Saw Douanes from a distance in Boulogne, they picked another Brit to visit. The HM's office in Dieppe asked to see our SSR certificate. Saw Douanes again in Fecamp, they walked past us and spent an hour on a German boat. And that's it so far.