Crossing Vessels

[GHA]

Yes, I am on the stand on vessel. I would have been monitoring the muppet vessel for some miles but it is his job to alter course. I would have devised a plan of action if he fails to do anything.

You'd better be quick then, 3 or 4 minutes to impact with traffic all around and you have it all sorted out....

How come you're stand on??

And the question remains, how far away would you like to see the sailing vessel do something?

Any others on here who drive big ships care to comment?

 

[RobbieW]

When you have this:
View attachment 103544

followed by this:
View attachment 103545

for the good part of 6 hours. 1nm CPA would have you never crossing. This was off the Portuguese coast south of Lisbon outside the TSS.

sorry about the quality of this one, it's a video screen grab but you get the picture! View attachment 103546

Tend to agree with the point I think you're making; its easy to be frightened by the tech. Crossing the channel S-N in 2017, having been away a few years, AIS made me think there wasnt space to cross the west bound traffic . After about 20 mins of dithering I realised that I couldnt actually see any of the ships on AIS and without it I would have carried on. So thats what I did and took action on what I could see visually. It was a clear evening with 20-25 kts from the SW so maneuverability wasnt a big issue for me.

 

[ProDave]

I might be thinking there's a risk of collision, while he knows he's turning into LeHavre.....

Which brings me on to a question. How do you know? Call him up on VHF and ask him?

We were sailing (under sail) this year and a small but faster mobo was approaching on a collision course. As he got closer there was no sign of him changing course and we were drawing up plans to avoid a collision if nothing changed. At the last minute, within 100 metres as we were about to tack out of his way, he turned. Almost as if he was playing chicken with is?

Should we have tried calling him on VHF to ask his intentions?

If that was his plan all along he probably didn't think there was a problem, but how are we to know?

 

[Gary Fox]

The free MCA Maritime Guidance Notes, No.364, goes into detail about crossing a TSS, and what is allowed or not allowed in a TSS. It focuses on the Dover Strait, but is highly educational in regard of all TSS's and is worth printing out.
The website, 'MCA Aurals' also has some good sample questions.

 

[LittleSister]

MCA Maritime Guidance Note No.364 -
https://assets.publishing.service.g...hment_data/file/861065/MGN_364_all_tagged.pdf

 

[Yealm]

More Colregs advise please

If you're sailing across a TSS, then I think the rules that apply are Rule 18 and Rule 10.
But Rule 18 clearly defers to Rule 10, so does this mean that a sailing vessel always gives way ?


Rule 18
Responsibilities between vessels.
Except where rules 9, 10, and 13 otherwise require:
(a) a power-driven vessel underway shall keep out of the way of:

(iv) a sailing vessel.

Rule 10
(j) A vessel of less than 20m in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the safe passage of a power-driven vessel following a traffic lane.

 

[Yealm]

The challenge with my AIS (Raymarine, feeding to Garmin plotter) is that it doesn't display vessel positions at CPA. So if the CPA is too close for comfort, there's no easy way to tell whether I should speed up (to pass safely in front) or slow down/change course (to pass safely behind).

Is this functionality available as standard now or with other software/manufacturers (mine's about 4 years old) ?

 

[LittleSister]

More Colregs advise please

If you're sailing across a TSS, then I think the rules that apply are Rule 18 and Rule 10.
But Rule 18 clearly defers to Rule 10, so does this mean that a sailing vessel always gives way ?


Rule 18
Responsibilities between vessels.
Except where rules 9, 10, and 13 otherwise require:
(a) a power-driven vessel underway shall keep out of the way of:

(iv) a sailing vessel.

Rule 10
(j) A vessel of less than 20m in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the safe passage of a power-driven vessel following a traffic lane.

No. Not impeding is not the same as being the give way vessel.

See paragraph 2.9 of the Guidance note linked to above. That para relates specifically to fishing vessels, but it gives you the idea what 'not impeding' means. In my view it doesn't relieve the vessel following the TSS lane from give way responsibilities, but you must not put them in a position where they have to stop, slow down, or leave the TSS to do that giving way. Ideally try to avoid a need for them to give way in the first place, but it doesn't make them the stand on vessel.

 

[mainsail1]

You'd better be quick then, 3 or 4 minutes to impact with traffic all around and you have it all sorted out....

How come you're stand on??

And the question remains, how far away would you like to see the sailing vessel do something?

Any others on here who drive big ships care to comment?

I am now completely confused. What are you asking?

 

[DJE]

Is this functionality available as standard now or with other software/manufacturers (mine's about 4 years old) ?

Yes. My two year old Raymarine plotter shows a vector of the ship's course relative to me. But the best AIS display I have seen is on Opencpn which very clearly shows the positions of both vessels at CPA.

 

[Gary Fox]

No. Not impeding is not the same as being the give way vessel.

See paragraph 2.9 of the Guidance note linked to above. That para relates specifically to fishing vessels, but it gives you the idea what 'not impeding' means. In my view it doesn't relieve the vessel following the TSS lane from give way responsibilities, but you must not put them in a position where they have to stop, slow down, or leave the TSS to do that giving way. Ideally try to avoid a need for them to give way in the first place, but it doesn't make them the stand on vessel.

That's the way I see it.
I would suggest that the 'not impede' rule is lower in the hierarchy than the basic 'vessels within sight of one another' parts.

 

[Never Grumble]

The challenge with my AIS (Raymarine, feeding to Garmin plotter) is that it doesn't display vessel positions at CPA. So if the CPA is too close for comfort, there's no easy way to tell whether I should speed up (to pass safely in front) or slow down/change course (to pass safely behind).

Is this functionality available as standard now or with other software/manufacturers (mine's about 4 years old) ?

whether you are going to pass ahead or astern shouldn't it be obvious by watching the relative movement of the other vessel.

I remember in my grey ship watch keeping days (before AIS and GPS) that going through the separation zones we used to speed up so that relative movement became quicker and hence more obvious, remember being impeded by fishing vessels and giving them 5 short blasts, not that they did anything in response they clearly didn't worry too much about the rules, can't actually remember ever seeing a sailing vessel or ever having a problem with one. Recently spoke to someone I know who was a tanker captain he didn't seem overly concerned about yachts either. Particularly if you are showing on AIS they will make a slight alteration of course at appropriate distance to just open up the CPA.

 

[GHA]

I am now completely confused. What are you asking?

As per the first post -

on the bridge of big ships - if so what distance would you start getting a bit concerned in open water/shipping lanes if a risk of collision existed and the a give way yacht did nothing?

So you're heading down the channel and 5 miles away there's a yacht crossing which your radar says will result in a close quarters situation, if nothing changes what distance away is the yacht when you start to get a little nervous, how far away would you like to see something to indicate the yacht was intending the give way?
A few posts seem to suggest they'll do nothing until the last moment which doesn't seem to be very good manners..

 

[Yealm]

No. Not impeding is not the same as being the give way vessel.

See paragraph 2.9 of the Guidance note linked to above. That para relates specifically to fishing vessels, but it gives you the idea what 'not impeding' means. In my view it doesn't relieve the vessel following the TSS lane from give way responsibilities, but you must not put them in a position where they have to stop, slow down, or leave the TSS to do that giving way. Ideally try to avoid a need for them to give way in the first place, but it doesn't make them the stand on vessel.

Thanks !
So a sailing vessel is always the stand on vessel, regardless of direction of crossing ?

 

[Never Grumble]

So you're heading down the channel and 5 miles away there's a yacht crossing which your radar says will result in a close quarters situation, if nothing changes what distance away is the yacht when you start to get a little nervous, how far away would you like to see something to indicate the yacht was intending the give way?
A few posts seem to suggest they'll do nothing until the last moment which doesn't seem to be very good manners..

In the old days that yacht probably wouldn't have painted on a warship radar until it was a couple of miles away and if the sea was at all rough the white hull/sail wouldn't be seen until closer. Course of action would depend on the relative aspect and we were going at 15 to 20 knots then a 10° alteration either way would open up the distance by 700 yards (1° @1 NM = 35yds) . Most guys I worked with would take a common sense approach as to what to do, clearly everybody is out to avoid everyone else. One captain I worked for was happy when in the solent for yachts to pass a couple of hundred feet away another would run a mile if in the centre of the channel you could see another ship on the horizon.

 

[RichardS]

Thanks !
So a sailing vessel is always the stand on vessel, regardless of direction of crossing ?

Whilst sailing, stand on to a freighter under normal circumstances ..... but definitely not always the stand on vessel.

Richard

 

[Gary Fox]

Thanks !
So a sailing vessel is always the stand on vessel, regardless of direction of crossing ?

Only in the Solent