Cross channel - without liferaft?

I will not leave a marina without a liferaft! There again, I do boats for a living and cannot for the life of me understand how anyone can rationalise away the need to spend a bit of dosh on obvious seamanship.
Does anyone here not have a spare tyre in their car??

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Does anyone here not have a spare tyre in their car??

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My last company car - 7 seat version of VW Touran - no spare wheel just a can of tyre weld and a pump. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

BTW - cross channel without liferaft as well. Do lash the dinghy on deck with pump inside - probably only take me 5 or 6 minutes to inflate. Probably as much use as a chocolate teapot!
 
Its a bit like insurance. You work out the level of cover you want and then get the cover you think best, or can afford.

Up until recently I was of the belief that I didn't need a LR. A disabled boat is still a safer place, and easier to find than a much smaller LR. So long as it is not an ordinary boat sinking.

I did not carry a LR previously for the simple reason that my boat, by design, an Etap, will not sink. However last year I tried the 'inflate the dinghy against the clock' test. I wanted to satisfy myself that if the boat caught fire, the only reason to evacuate, I would be able to save myself and crew. The result of the test was a failure, a failure in so much as we would have had to continue inflating the dinghy in the water. The dinghy idea is Ok if you can carry it fully inflated, if its in a locker, forget it.

Anyway, as a result of my test and with the cost of a life raft little more than a couple of years boat insurance, I bought one. Another expenditure like the insurance that I'll never use. However, when I go below for a snooze on a channel crossing, I can sleep soundly.

Oh! Sould mention, if I didnt own an Etap, I'd have bought the life raft years ago.
 
Crossed Channel without, but up to Irish Sea and St Kilda/Hebrides with one.

Difficult decision to make, really. I was rescued for real by the RNLI some 15 years ago in a really bad proper southerly Gale off Alderney and got towed in. (The Alderney LB crew have a commemorative painting in thanks). This was in a 23' Virgo Voyager (Triple Bilger). However, at no time was the hull in danger of sinking from the waves, rather the hull would have been tumbled and rolled -they only launched for us as we were going to end up blown back to Dorset and probably wrecked near Poole. Having a GPS system would have averted this. I've just missed being run down in fog by a big Cargo vessel, and I think in a direct hit from a fast cargo vessel, the crew would stand no chance anyway - especially after the Ouzo tragedy.

Following a collision with an object, and getting a catastrophic leak, I feel that investing in better bilge pumping gear is a lot cheaper and just as effective. Also, keeping the bilges clean, and having a changover valve so that cooling water can be sucked out of the bilges by the engine cooling water pump is a good idea, provided that the impellor can last a moments dry running. Some sort of thrummed collision mat (now, that's a gap in the market.. I want 10%) is a good idea as well as the usual wedges. At least you stand a good chance of getting the boat back to a slipway to dry out and repair.

Personally, I feel much happier sailing with a liferaft. I've always found that inflatable dinghys being either towed or stowed on deck to be a total nuisance so I avoid this at all costs.

Having done a survival course, I know just how knackering it can be to swim even a short distance in full kit in a warm pool, so I know you can't rely on any real swimming ability to get you out of trouble.

I don't currently have a suitable one (small and well out of service) and I don't think that this year my sailing will be more than coastal, but I'll definitely have one as the budget allows next year. By then, I'll be taking the wife 'n' kids, so no skimping on the safety there, even if its just for the peace of mind.
 
Let me attack this from another direction;

Assume that you lose the yacht (it sinks). On a Solent- Chebourg trip.
Then you get into a liferaft or another floating thing.

If you have a handheld VHF and portable GPS you can announce the problem. Helo from land will take 45 mins (at night-worstcase) to get crewed then 30 mins flying (roughly) - so you need to be able to "float" for 2 hours and announce your position for a fast response.
Shipping in the Channel would be closer. But response time (changing from steaming to manouevering fuel, launching rescue boat) might be about an hour.
Lifeboat from UK (or Channel Islands) at 25knots, 10 mins to launch - say about 90 mins.
SART - announces your location and problem to anyone with a radar - would get a good response time from Channel shipping, as above.

Survival time floating in the sea (witha lifejacket), at current water temperatures of 9 degC you are good for acouple of hours (just) but unable to announce your location and call for help.

The big difference is that the liferaft can be used in foul weather but your dinghy might flip and chuck you out. That is the really important bit.

So, unless the weather is bad, the money might be better spent on a grab bag with a hand held VHF, spare batteries and a GPS. Also flares and good lifejackets with lights if you do go in the water.

Biggest thing is being able to say, after the boat sinks, where you are and that you need help (SART, VHF, Flares, GPS).

Probably missed something - quick reply.
 
I'm with you CapnSensible..... seems potty to me to not have a raft... The idea of using a Inflatable is a non starter in bad weather, or if your run down..... A good 4 person raft can be as little as £500 new..... Just potty not to have one.... and have it mounted on deck with a hydrostatic release.


You have a responsibility to take reasonable care when off shore, and I think its reasonable to have a raft...
 
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Biggest thing is being able to say, after the boat sinks, where you are and that you need help (SART, VHF, Flares, GPS).

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Hope I would have time to say where I was before boat sinks and use added height of mast to stand a chance of being heard. Range of handheld VHF would be lot less.

Maybe I should put a liferaft on the 'to buy' list?
 
Your choice I guess - racers for the offshore series in JOG and RORC from memory have to carry one. The boat I sailed on had it lashed to the mast below (weight low down of course) with slip knots and we always thought it would get on deck pretty quick if really required (frightened man with bucket scenario).
 
Lets not forget the dinghy has some advantages over a liferaft as well as the disadvantages.

You use it every day so you know it will work when you need it. It's can be rowed or blown with the wind giving you a fair chance of reaching land yourself even if you aren't picked up.

The Robertsons ended up in their dinghy when the liferaft fell apart and still lived, At least one liferaft in the '79 fastnet tore apart badly enough to render it dinghy-like in its characteristics and people still came of it alive.
 
Some wonderful anecdotes and well argued personal opinions (even calling on "good seamanship"). However, still no objective evidence that
1 The probability of getting into a situation where abandoning ship is the only viable course of action is significant
and
2 That use of a liferaft increases the chances of survival in such situations

The three incidents quoted so far are all extreme cases, as one would expect, and separated by years. In other words, incidents where a life raft may be a possibile solution for leisure sailors are very rare. Equally rare are documented cases of life rafts saving lives (for leisure sailors). I wonder why manufacturers never use successful outcomes in their advertising? Their main message, like most "safety" equipment is fear and "quality" of design and manufacture.

For professional seafarers such as fishermen and others who go out in all weathers I can see the point. For the extreme end of yachting such as cruising in dangerous parts of the world or racing yachts at the limit (particulalry ones where the keels might falll off) I can see the advantages. For the average cruising yachtsmen where all the emphasis is on reducing risk by good planning and only doing it for pleasure, I have my doubts.

One could argue that we were all safer sailors 30 years ago when we only had basic gear, never knew exactly where we were and did not have the means to summon help quickly. Made us very cautious and to my mind added to the sense of achievement. And, no I am not advocating discarding all the recent developments, just suggesting keeping a sense of proportion.
 
I suppose it boils down to whether or not you really have the space to stow it sensibly. I'd still prepare the boat better for staying afloat when damaged, and alerting assistance, than just opting for a raft. I get the sense that people sometimes abandon to a raft a bit too soon just because they have one rather than keep the boat afloat. Channel crossings in daylight and good weather should be trouble free anyway. AIS will make a big difference to safety of small boats, and I value this over a raft in congested waters.
 
Spot on.

I also agree about lack of objective measures of safety gear.

I guess we are cursed with a sport that is so safe that meaningful figures for where the tiny risks actually lie are non-existant!
 
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When I next went below it was to discover an unwelcome development. Water was well over the floorboards,

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The man is a master of the understatement /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Not sure if it was their own inflatable that saved them or one veered down on a line by their rescuers?
 
You echo my feelings vey accurately. Nice to kn ow i am not a lone voice in the wilderness.

My feeling is that its not a lack of information which is the safety problem now (as it was before)( but over reliance on the plethora of nformation that is available now.
 
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I will not leave a marina without a liferaft! There again, I do boats for a living and cannot for the life of me understand how anyone can rationalise away the need to spend a bit of dosh on obvious seamanship.
Does anyone here not have a spare tyre in their car??

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Take your argument to the nth degree we would all have boats barely floating on their gunwales due to the weight of safety gear, each addition is just a small sum of money.

I rationalise it away due to weight, there, you asked.
 
It was the tender from the passing yacht (Jeanneau 54DS). I spoke with the guys on that boat afterwards, they said they had very nearly left the tender behind as it was big and cumbersome! The lads on the Hanse couldn't have asked for a better boat to be rescued by, it has everything bar a jacuzzi!! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
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