Crosby link

[Mr Cassandra]

Does it matter if you buy a Crosby link to join your chain.
On a recent anchor thread we have been told by a journalist/ expert that the loading on an anchor is at a remarkable low tention. Under 700 kg for a modern 25 kg anchor
Should you be concerned if your cheap Chinese copy link is rated at only 2000kg
If the so call experts are correct , can we sleep safe with any link on the market for our chain ?

 

[V1701]

I think you've answered your own question, why risk it?

 

[greeny]

Does it matter if you buy a Crosby link to join your chain.
On a recent anchor thread we have been told by a journalist/ expert that the loading on an anchor is at a remarkable low tention. Under 700 kg for a modern 25 kg anchor
Should you be concerned if your cheap Chinese copy link is rated at only 2000kg
If the so call experts are correct , can we sleep safe with any link on the market for our chain ?

If they're correct -yes.
If they're wrong - no.
I guess it also depends on your disposition regarding risk and ability to sleep with that risk.
Personally I would want the best option in my anchor chain. Anchor watch apps can be useful for normal overnight anchoring and would probably wake you if there was a problem but one day your anchor may be needed and have to be used at the limits of its capabilities in an emergency. I wouldn't want any weak link in my chain.

 

[Neeves]

You are correct - you need to question those so called journalist/experts, worse are the ones who are just experts. And maybe when you discover they so called journalist experts might actually know what they are talking about - you could give them a bit more slack

The genuine Crosby links are cheap, considering they secure your pride and joy (and family). You can order them from Tecni from your armchair, mail order. If you order it now - it might be with you on Friday, ready to instal over the weekend - what's not to like and all done, except the installation from your armchair. They are as difficult or as easy to instal as a cheap link (not quite true - they can be a devil to rivet together - but not impossibly, you just need a big hammer and an anvil). The specification defined for your cheap Chinese link might be accurate, or not. There will be hundreds of Chinese 'C' link makers - you simply do not know what quality you are actually buying. No-one can test all the possible sources from China - and if it were possible the links are not stamped with a manufacturers name.

Finally I have actually measured the tension in my rode under various conditions using a load cell - I have no idea what the tension is in your rode (I could make a guess if you tell me about your yacht and chain) but my guess is you have no idea yourself.

Its all about minimising risk, which is why when you order the Crosby 'C' link you will order two Crosby G209a shackles for your anchor, one as spare. Again they, Crosby shackles, are cheap as chips - in the grand scheme of things - and having confidence in the integrity of the rode engendered sleep and minimises the fear factor.

My guess would be that you spent extra and bought a bigger anchor than you need (you would be very unusual if you bought the anchor recommended for your yacht by the anchor maker) - why not carry that philosophy to your 'C' link. It is becoming increasingly common to replace old chain of G30 strength with a new chain of G40 strength - chain over the last decade has proven remarkably and consistently of good quality (and most of it is a G30 quality) - why upgrade to G40 (and then use a cheap 'C' link).

I could tell you horror stories of rode products sold by reputable companies and the stories will make you hair curl. As O mention with yield and strength - companies can be less than generous with the specification of their product. They think they will get away with it - but there are some nasty smells around. You will not know about this from the armchair gurus - they don't test anything and rely on gut feel and emotion.

If you are using G30 chain the specification will be 3,000kg break for 8mm chain - why would you reduce the safety factor buy using a simple cheap components with a rating of 2,000kg. Really it beggars belief. The 'C' link strength is determined by being riveted correctly - can you guarantee that for your crew when you make the installation? If its a G40 chain then the break strength is 4,000kg. Now - If you over stress your 8mm chain you could expect it to stretch at 1,500kg - your 'C' link, specified at 2,000kg break, may stretch at 1,000kg - I bet you have no idea of the yield of your cheap 'C' link - and it may yield at a lower tension - and then not pass through the gypsy. Minimum break strength gives no indication of yield.

It depends on the individual's situation but if I had no spare rode I'd be inclined to look at the exisiting rode and determine how much rust it already has and if it is starting to look unsightly I might consider buying a whole new rode, washing the old rode and drying it and using it with some textiles as my spare rode. I'd keep the spare rode somewhere dry and low down, to keep the rust at bay. A spare rode is very useful (when you suddenly need it) and short lengths of chain make shore lines easier to wrap round rocks. You will then have a new rode that will give you over 1,000 mights safely at anchor and a spare rode should you need to abandon the new rode or in case you need to anchor in a 'V'. I assume you already carry a spare anchor - why the spare - if you have no rode?

At the end of the day the decision is yours - you are the skipper. But saving a few pennies on a 'C' link, or a shackle, seems perverse.


Interestingly journo's document what they know and how they know it - they offer test results and links to supportive articles. Interestingly other experts object when asked about their knowledge base n(how dare you ask them - their opinions cannot be evaluated by looking at their background. Equally others advise they have more experiences than most will ever have in a lifetime - but never mention exactly what those experiences are (and interestingly do not appear to have used a modern anchor). But hey, ho lets knock those who are open with their background, they make for more fun. Much better to rely on someone who has never done this or that - or objects to confirming same. Most Journo/Experts here do not rely on opinion - but on data. If there is no data - then it is an opinion and opinions can differ. Rant over.


Please tell us what you do

Take care, stay safe

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

If they're correct -yes.
If they're wrong - no.
I guess it also depends on your disposition regarding risk and ability to sleep with that risk.
Personally I would want the best option in my anchor chain. Anchor watch apps can be useful for normal overnight anchoring and would probably wake you if there was a problem but one day your anchor may be needed and have to be used at the limits of its capabilities in an emergency. I wouldn't want any weak link in my chain.

You will only find out if the 'experts' are right - when your link fails. Its an interesting experiment - but one I would not take - I'd buy 2 links and have one tested - its cheaper.

Anchor apps are obviously useful - but finding your stg750 anchor and half your rode subsequently seems like unnecessarily hard work - when for a few pennies more and waiting a few days for it to be delivered the link would never have failed in the first place.

But each to their own.

To me its all a bit of a 'no brainer' and not even the comment of a 'Journo-expert' is needed.

Jonathan

 

[Mr Cassandra]

From my armchair (I wish) that's one of the thing I miss living on a mono for so many years.
I read and chalange things written,that need further explanation, if we agree that the max load on an 25kg anchor is never going to be greater than what people have researched, approx 700kg. Why the propensity for buying stronger and larger chain and if joining with a link one so strong as one made by Crosby.
It has been said on numerous threads that we do not need this extra strength in chain or joining links.



This was posted in another thread

but your likelihood of having a tension in your rode beyond 500kg is, roughly, zero plus or minus .... zero.

 

[Neeves]

From my armchair (I wish) that's one of the thing I miss living on a mono for so many years.
I read and chalange things written,that need further explanation, if we agree that the max load on an 25kg anchor is never going to be greater than what people have researched, approx 700kg. Why the propensity for buying stronger and larger chain and if joining with a link one so strong as one made by Crosby.
It has been said on numerous threads that we do not need this extra strength in chain or joining links.



This was posted in another thread

but your likelihood of having a tension in your rode beyond 500kg is, roughly, zero plus or minus .... zero.

Your chance of having a serious car accident is roughly zero (I hope - I do care for your welfare - which is why I think you should buy the Crosby link) - but you still wear a seatbelt and ensure your children/grandchildren are strapped in.

You know what the specification is for the link, 2,000kg - have you seen a certificate, who provided the certificate. I tested shackles from a reputable supplier - not one met their specification (embossed on the shackle). They were unable to produce certification showing I was wrong (as far as I could make out they relied exclusively on their supplier who had questionable QC). They quietly changed the specification.

A Witchard chain hook bent. It was being used correctly. It is simply not strong enough - Primary supplier of marine equipment with a high reputation. The pins locking the chain in the hook, bend like spaghetti.

We don't know what load might develop on a link in a rode if the link is 'out of line' and what might happen if that link has only half the strength of the rest of the chain. The chances might be zero - but Russian Roulette is unnecessary.

You have the data, you have the advice - you are the skipper, its your responsibility.

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

Mr Cassandra - its healthy to probe.

Extending your probe - why not just buy 6mm chain in one length. Saves weight, might use a smaller windlass, less power needed, you could dispense with the windlass (hand retrievals of 6mm is a joy in comparison to 8mm) and would remove the issues of towering. But that's the strength of the rode with a 2,000kg joiner in a 8mm chain, whether its a G70, G40 or G30 8mm chain - the strength is that of the weakest link.

Jonathan

 

[RichardS]

You are correct - you need to question those so called journalist/experts, worse are the ones who are just experts. And maybe when you discover they so called journalist experts might actually know what they are talking about - you could give them a bit more slack

The genuine Crosby links are cheap, considering they secure your pride and joy (and family). You can order them from Tecni from your armchair, mail order. If you order it now - it might be with you on Friday, ready to instal over the weekend - what's not to like and all done, except the installation from your armchair. They are as difficult or as easy to instal as a cheap link (not quite true - they can be a devil to rivet together - but not impossibly, you just need a big hammer and an anvil). The specification defined for your cheap Chinese link might be accurate, or not. There will be hundreds of Chinese 'C' link makers - you simply do not know what quality you are actually buying. No-one can test all the possible sources from China - and if it were possible the links are not stamped with a manufacturers name.

Finally I have actually measured the tension in my rode under various conditions using a load cell - I have no idea what the tension is in your rode (I could make a guess if you tell me about your yacht and chain) but my guess is you have no idea yourself.

Its all about minimising risk, which is why when you order the Crosby 'C' link you will order two Crosby G209a shackles for your anchor, one as spare. Again they, Crosby shackles, are cheap as chips - in the grand scheme of things - and having confidence in the integrity of the rode engendered sleep and minimises the fear factor.

My guess would be that you spent extra and bought a bigger anchor than you need (you would be very unusual if you bought the anchor recommended for your yacht by the anchor maker) - why not carry that philosophy to your 'C' link. It is becoming increasingly common to replace old chain of G30 strength with a new chain of G40 strength - chain over the last decade has proven remarkably and consistently of good quality (and most of it is a G30 quality) - why upgrade to G40 (and then use a cheap 'C' link).

I could tell you horror stories of rode products sold by reputable companies and the stories will make you hair curl. As O mention with yield and strength - companies can be less than generous with the specification of their product. They think they will get away with it - but there are some nasty smells around. You will not know about this from the armchair gurus - they don't test anything and rely on gut feel and emotion.

If you are using G30 chain the specification will be 3,000kg break for 8mm chain - why would you reduce the safety factor buy using a simple cheap components with a rating of 2,000kg. Really it beggars belief. The 'C' link strength is determined by being riveted correctly - can you guarantee that for your crew when you make the installation? If its a G40 chain then the break strength is 4,000kg. Now - If you over stress your 8mm chain you could expect it to stretch at 1,500kg - your 'C' link, specified at 2,000kg break, may stretch at 1,000kg - I bet you have no idea of the yield of your cheap 'C' link - and it may yield at a lower tension - and then not pass through the gypsy. Minimum break strength gives no indication of yield.

It depends on the individual's situation but if I had no spare rode I'd be inclined to look at the exisiting rode and determine how much rust it already has and if it is starting to look unsightly I might consider buying a whole new rode, washing the old rode and drying it and using it with some textiles as my spare rode. I'd keep the spare rode somewhere dry and low down, to keep the rust at bay. A spare rode is very useful (when you suddenly need it) and short lengths of chain make shore lines easier to wrap round rocks. You will then have a new rode that will give you over 1,000 mights safely at anchor and a spare rode should you need to abandon the new rode or in case you need to anchor in a 'V'. I assume you already carry a spare anchor - why the spare - if you have no rode?

At the end of the day the decision is yours - you are the skipper. But saving a few pennies on a 'C' link, or a shackle, seems perverse.


Interestingly journo's document what they know and how they know it - they offer test results and links to supportive articles. Interestingly other experts object when asked about their knowledge base n(how dare you ask them - their opinions cannot be evaluated by looking at their background. Equally others advise they have more experiences than most will ever have in a lifetime - but never mention exactly what those experiences are (and interestingly do not appear to have used a modern anchor). But hey, ho lets knock those who are open with their background, they make for more fun. Much better to rely on someone who has never done this or that - or objects to confirming same. Most Journo/Experts here do not rely on opinion - but on data. If there is no data - then it is an opinion and opinions can differ. Rant over.


Please tell us what you do

Take care, stay safe

Jonathan

I fitted a Crosby link when I joined two 50m lengths of chain. I guess that makes me a genuine expert rather than the armchair version.

Richard

 

[Neeves]

I fitted a Crosby link when I joined two 50m lengths of chain. I guess that makes me a genuine expert rather than the armchair version.

Richard

Hope springs eternal?

You may be an expert in many disciplines but our knowledge of you is limited to what you post and that might be opinion not based on any experience nor data, unless you can elaborate on your background or the background to what you post - we don't know you from a bar of soap (its an Oz expression). Bars of soap are very useful, if not essential

Taking sensible advice, whether sitting in an armchair or not, should not need any expertise - just common sense. One hopes most owners are experts in common sense, becoming an expert in a specialist area would take more than natural inclinations - as Served Apprentices, Graduates, qualified pilots of an Airbus etc will confirm.

Jonathan

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Again you talk as if everyone is new to sailing and chain
I once was s Manager of he Chester Chain company . Boundary lane Chester.Cheshire UK I had swivel chair in them days

Chester Chain are specialist Lifting Equipment Engineers engaged in the sales, hire, service, repair, examination and testing of all types of lifting equipment, hoists and miscellaneous lifting tackle.

The company has been trading for over 55 years and has built up an excellent reputation serving a very diverse range of clients including the aerospace, nuclear, petro-chemical, glass, water, manufacturing, packaging and food industries. Our factory and test facility is located in the North West of England in an area well served by motorways, ports and airports.

Our aim is to provide a one-stop shop for all of your Lifting Equipment requirements, a source of quality products at competitive prices with speedy and efficient service.

As an independent agent for all leading manufacturers in the UK and elsewhere, Chester Chain are not tied to any specific manufacturer and can, therefore, submit the best and most cost effective lifting equipment proposals to suit individual client needs and circumstances.

EXCELLENCE IN LIFTING AND HANDLING
Our team of trained and L.E.E.A. qualified service engineers, in well equipped vans, provide a first class maintenance and repair service to all makes and types of cranes and hoists, etc. We also carry out examinations and load testing of lifting appliances in accordance with the UK statutory regulations and we promptly issue the appropriate certificates.
Left them over thirty years ago
Operating under stress, with large work loads?

 

[fredrussell]

If a Crosby link was expensive, I could see the point of this thread. But they’re about a tenner, why skimp?

 

[Mr Cassandra]

The point of the thread is according to experts there is no need to worry about joining chain, your likelihood of having a tension in your rode beyond 500kg is, roughly, zero plus or minus .... zero.
And I don't know how easily that particular manufacturer of links (Crosby) is in certain parts of the world

 

[Neeves]

Again you talk as if everyone is new to sailing and chain
I once was s Manager of he Chester Chain company . Boundary lane Chester.Cheshire UK I had swivel chair in them days

Chester Chain are specialist Lifting Equipment Engineers engaged in the sales, hire, service, repair, examination and testing of all types of lifting equipment, hoists and miscellaneous lifting tackle.

The company has been trading for over 55 years and has built up an excellent reputation serving a very diverse range of clients including the aerospace, nuclear, petro-chemical, glass, water, manufacturing, packaging and food industries. Our factory and test facility is located in the North West of England in an area well served by motorways, ports and airports.

Our aim is to provide a one-stop shop for all of your Lifting Equipment requirements, a source of quality products at competitive prices with speedy and efficient service.

As an independent agent for all leading manufacturers in the UK and elsewhere, Chester Chain are not tied to any specific manufacturer and can, therefore, submit the best and most cost effective lifting equipment proposals to suit individual client needs and circumstances.

EXCELLENCE IN LIFTING AND HANDLING
Our team of trained and L.E.E.A. qualified service engineers, in well equipped vans, provide a first class maintenance and repair service to all makes and types of cranes and hoists, etc. We also carry out examinations and load testing of lifting appliances in accordance with the UK statutory regulations and we promptly issue the appropriate certificates.
Left them over thirty years ago
Operating under stress, with large work loads?

When I worked in London my secretary in Adelaide House, London Bridge also had a swivel chain.

But then only someone new to chain would ask the question. I have to assume that if the question is being asked the person using the question is looking for support and answers - if they were an expert I would not expect the question to be posed. If I had known I was simply a source of entertainment for you - I would not have wasted my time.

Most lifting items in Europe are sold to a 4:1 safety factor (shackles are an exception). The link you proposed to use had a 2,000kg MBS - so 500kg tension is at the limit of the 4:1 safety factor. G30 chain has a WLL of 750kg and G40 a WLL of 1,000kg - why would anyone suggest using a product with a WLL of 500kg to join two pieces of chain with WLL of 750kg or 1000kg - beggars belief. I think some increased margin for error is called for considering the 'C' link will be subject to the rigours of the marine environment - which might be why you are using a G30 or G40 8mm chain and not a 6mm chain.

The point of the thread is according to experts there is no need to worry about joining chain, your likelihood of having a tension in your rode beyond 500kg is, roughly, zero plus or minus .... zero.
And I don't know how easily that particular manufacturer is in certain parts of the world

If you read Vyv Cox website you can obtain chapter and verse on use of 'C' links. Vyv confirms he has used 'C' links and with certain provisos, don't weld, he is comfortable and uses a Crosby link himself.

I'm finding it increasingly difficult to work out your point


Your final sentence simply does not make any sense.

Jonathan

 

[Ink]

Again you talk as if everyone is new to sailing and chain
I once was s Manager of he Chester Chain company . Boundary lane Chester.Cheshire UK I had swivel chair in them days

EXCELLENCE IN LIFTING AND HANDLING
Our team of trained and L.E.E.A. qualified service engineers, in well equipped vans, provide a first class maintenance and repair service to all makes and types of cranes and hoists, etc. We also carry out examinations and load testing of lifting appliances in accordance with the UK statutory regulations and we promptly issue the appropriate certificates.
Left them over thirty years ago
Operating under stress, with large work loads?

Not withstanding your last sentence you last worked in the industry thirty years ago and it looks as if you have just lifted some blurb chapter and verse from a brochure.

Just explain why the matter of extra expense of (say) a Crosby link is worth your original post?

Ink

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Mr Cassandra - its healthy to probe.

Extending your probe - why not just buy 6mm chain in one length. Saves weight, might use a smaller windlass, less power needed, you could dispense with the windlass (hand retrievals of 6mm is a joy in comparison to 8mm) and would remove the issues of towering. But that's the strength of the rode with a 2,000kg joiner in a 8mm chain, whether its a G70, G40 or G30 8mm chain - the strength is that of the weakest link.

Jonathan

Not withstanding your last sentence you last worked in the industry thirty years ago and it looks as if you have just lifted some blurb chapter and verse from a brochure.

Just explain why the matter of extra expense of (say) a Crosby link is worth your original post?

Ink

Are Crosby links readily available in Greece, I've never seen one in 20 years although I can buy Chinese chain that is close or above spec. Are the Chinese links of equal standard. Close or better?
And as it's been quoted many times your likelihood of having a tension in your rode beyond 500kg is, roughly, zero plus or minus .... zero.
Do you need to.
Asking for a friend as I have a 2018beneteau 461 with 120 meters 10mm chain with a 33kgManson Supreme modern anchor and a very strong windless.

 

[penberth3]

.......I'm finding it increasingly difficult to work out your point

IMHO, it's all a subtle advert for a lifting gear company.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

IMHO, it's all a subtle advert for a lifting gear company.

Ha ha ? what is not subtle is a journalist constantly self advertising himself on here , he took a beating on another thread on anchor weight against surface area of fluke, it took a long time for him to understand that's why a aluminium anchor with a large surface area works so well, then he starts again on vearing ,
He post 10000 + words on every anchor thread . ..
There was some guy on here with a snubber 12 metres long and stretches several feet . because it support his agenda ,he thought it was a wonderful set up . Agenda agenda agenda.

 

[greeny]

Again you talk as if everyone is new to sailing and chain
I once was s Manager of he Chester Chain company . Boundary lane Chester.Cheshire UK I had swivel chair in them days

Chester Chain are specialist Lifting Equipment Engineers engaged in the sales, hire, service, repair, examination and testing of all types of lifting equipment, hoists and miscellaneous lifting tackle.

The company has been trading for over 55 years and has built up an excellent reputation serving a very diverse range of clients including the aerospace, nuclear, petro-chemical, glass, water, manufacturing, packaging and food industries. Our factory and test facility is located in the North West of England in an area well served by motorways, ports and airports.

Our aim is to provide a one-stop shop for all of your Lifting Equipment requirements, a source of quality products at competitive prices with speedy and efficient service.

As an independent agent for all leading manufacturers in the UK and elsewhere, Chester Chain are not tied to any specific manufacturer and can, therefore, submit the best and most cost effective lifting equipment proposals to suit individual client needs and circumstances.

EXCELLENCE IN LIFTING AND HANDLING
Our team of trained and L.E.E.A. qualified service engineers, in well equipped vans, provide a first class maintenance and repair service to all makes and types of cranes and hoists, etc. We also carry out examinations and load testing of lifting appliances in accordance with the UK statutory regulations and we promptly issue the appropriate certificates.
Left them over thirty years ago
Operating under stress, with large work loads?

Wow, impressive CV.
With all that behind you, why are you even asking the question? Use your obvious knowledge and experience and do what you think is right.
Why do I get a feeling that this post is just bait and you're not even interested in the answers.

 

[penfold]

This is even more tedious and tendentious than an anchor thread.