Credentials Mess

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messias

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Good day to all,

I found myself a bit stuck with sailing “credentials”, so I need your experts advice on this… if you can.
I have a rather unusual situation, because I have a permanent address in a country that is not my country of citizenship. I am Portuguese, but I am living in the Czech Republic. I have a Portuguese licence, but since Portugal did not signed the UN´s Resolution 40, it is not recognized by the Czech authorities.

All in all it wouldn´t be a problem if I only intended to sail in Portugal (or charter in Croatia, for example), but I am living here right now and I would really like to charter a boat locally (inland waters). I cannot apply for an ICC (accepted locally) because they are not issued to any other EU countries beside UK… and I cannot take the local exam…because it is held only in Czech language!

Therefore, I am running out of options…
I know that Yachmaster qualifications are accepted here, but since I am not familiar with the terms and the courses seem to share (almost) the same names, I confess that I am confused…and here´s where you guys come in :)

Here, besides from the local licences and the ICC, the Czech Republic recognises the following:
Yachmaster “C” (coastal, 20Nm)
Yachmaster “B” (200Nm)
Yachmaster “A” (offshore)

Are these in any way related to the RYA yachtmaster courses or, as “Monty Phyton” would put it… is it something completely different ?

In the end, my problem arises from wanting to sail a Czech flagged boat, so apparently this “yachtmaster” is my “last shot” at it… but I do NOT find these specific courses in the RYA website… :confused:


Any help on clarifying it will be highly valued!
 
AngusMcDoon said:
It's not that, it's because new users' first post needs to be moderated, and by the time that is done it appears well down the list and most people don't notice it. The solution is to bump it back up, as you did. Hope you get an answer.
Click to expand...

Thanks... "it worked" :)

Well, the "going to Greece" option is out of the question, by various reasons: First... I already have credentials! I have a Portuguese licence (and in fact I also have a Brazilian coastal licence).
Second: I am not a UK national nor a UK resident...therefore -according to RYA- I cannot be issued an ICC.
Third: For chartering (besides the Czech Republic, apparently) my credentials have been recognized and accepted everywhere.

What I cannot understand, is this "compulsory" thing with the ICC. Yes, yes, I know "some" of you will say that the ICC is not compulsory, but to those of you I say... Oh how wrong you are! Yes it is!

My case:
I live in the Czech Republic and I want to occasionally charter in the local lakes or have my trailer-sailer here...
I have a coastal official licence, issued by a country that requires the candidates to undertake hours and hours of theory and practical courses... (Portugal)
I live in a country that only recognizes two certificates in their waters (flying the local flag, of course): local credential (or) ICC...
Local credentials issued to permanent residents only
ICC certificates only issued to UK nationals or UK residents
All this = I have no options.

BUT... as the ICC was "established" as the "International certificate", It amazes me that you can get one, only if you live in the UK!
I can perfectly understand that countries who require their own mandatory licence don´t want to recognize the ICC alone as a "credential" ... but denying an ICC to someone who already has a licence?!
How "international" is that ICC?

Unlike driving licences, there is not a mutual recognition of boating licences within the EU, meaning that I have a worthless licence, that in fact was far more demanding than the local ones... or the ICC for that matter!


Tired of this "bouncing" between institutions, I have just filed a complaint in the EU "SOLVIT" department. In a few weeks I will post the answers here...
 
messias said:
I cannot apply for an ICC (accepted locally) because they are not issued to any other EU countries beside UK…
Click to expand...

Many countries issue ICCs.

messias said:
Second: I am not a UK national nor a UK resident...therefore -according to RYA- I cannot be issued an ICC.
Click to expand...

http://www.rya.org.uk/infoadvice/boatingabroad/icc/Pages/icc-no.aspx says

The following UNECE countries have not yet adopted Resolution 40.
The RYA is currently authorised to issue a UK ICC to eligible nationals and residents of these countries. However, if any of these countries adopts Resolution 40 then this may have an impact on the ability of the RYA to issue a UK ICC to the nationals and residents of that country.
...
Portugal
...​

However, it's a bit ambiguous, and may apply to Britons living in Portugal and people with Portuguese/British dual nationality only
 
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messias said:
Here, besides from the local licences and the ICC, the Czech Republic recognises the following:
Yachmaster “C” (coastal, 20Nm)
Yachmaster “B” (200Nm)
Yachmaster “A” (offshore)

Are these in any way related to the RYA yachtmaster courses or, as “Monty Phyton” would put it… is it something completely different ?
Click to expand...

I don't think those are anything to do with the RYA Yachtmaster scheme. The RYA has:

Yachtmaster Coastal
Yachtmaster Offshore
Yachtmaster Ocean

No A, B, C and as far as I know no specific distances.

Can't help with the rest of it, as we're not really used to mandatory licensing here. In the UK anyone can buy a boat and sail it wherever they want, as long as they don't take paying passengers.

Pete
 
messias said:
Thanks... "it worked" :)

Well, the "going to Greece" option is out of the question, by various reasons: First... I already have credentials! I have a Portuguese licence (and in fact I also have a Brazilian coastal licence).
Second: I am not a UK national nor a UK resident...therefore -according to RYA- I cannot be issued an ICC.
Third: For chartering (besides the Czech Republic, apparently) my credentials have been recognized and accepted everywhere.

What I cannot understand, is this "compulsory" thing with the ICC. Yes, yes, I know "some" of you will say that the ICC is not compulsory, but to those of you I say... Oh how wrong you are! Yes it is!

My case:
I live in the Czech Republic and I want to occasionally charter in the local lakes or have my trailer-sailer here...
I have a coastal official licence, issued by a country that requires the candidates to undertake hours and hours of theory and practical courses... (Portugal)
I live in a country that only recognizes two certificates in their waters (flying the local flag, of course): local credential (or) ICC...
Local credentials issued to permanent residents only
ICC certificates only issued to UK nationals or UK residents
All this = I have no options.

BUT... as the ICC was "established" as the "International certificate", It amazes me that you can get one, only if you live in the UK!
I can perfectly understand that countries who require their own mandatory licence don´t want to recognize the ICC alone as a "credential" ... but denying an ICC to someone who already has a licence?!
How "international" is that ICC?

Unlike driving licences, there is not a mutual recognition of boating licences within the EU, meaning that I have a worthless licence, that in fact was far more demanding than the local ones... or the ICC for that matter!


Tired of this "bouncing" between institutions, I have just filed a complaint in the EU "SOLVIT" department. In a few weeks I will post the answers here...
Click to expand...

I am afraid it is all down to the UN sponsored group who established the ICC, primarily to satisfy the requirements of the CEVNI waterways. The agreement placed the responsibility for issuing ICCs on governments to issue to their citizens who satisfy the minimum requirements of the certificate. This can be met either by the individual citizen holding an appropriate national certificate (Yachtmaster Coastal or its predecessor Coastal Skipper in the UK) or by taking a separate test to demonstrate competence (as you can in the UK). Because of the status of the RYA qualifications and the large numbers of non UK citizens that either take the qualifications or are resident in the UK the UN has allowed the RYA to issue ICCs to non nationals who hold the right qualifications or take the ICC test under the RYA supervision. As far as I know, no other country does this.

As you have already found out, very few countries have actually signed up to the Resolution, but most accept the ICC if they require foreigners to have some form of licence. So, your problem is that your national authority does not issue ICCs, and although some countries such as Croatia will accept your national qualification, others as you have found out won't.

There does not seem to be anything you can do about this other than lobby the Portuguese authorities to change their policy - not an easy task, or to take the RYA course and gain the appropriate certificate.

You will not get anywhere with the EU as this is nothing to do with them. Although there have been proposals (as recently as 2012) for an EU wide licencing system it has been rejected by all states as for most people the local licencing plus the ICC works - but as you have discovered not for everybody and some like you fall through the gaps.
 
messias said:
Good day to all,

I found myself a bit stuck with sailing “credentials”, so I need your experts advice on this… if you can.
I have a rather unusual situation, because I have a permanent address in a country that is not my country of citizenship. I am Portuguese, but I am living in the Czech Republic. I have a Portuguese licence, but since Portugal did not signed the UN´s Resolution 40, it is not recognized by the Czech authorities.

All in all it wouldn´t be a problem if I only intended to sail in Portugal (or charter in Croatia, for example), but I am living here right now and I would really like to charter a boat locally (inland waters). I cannot apply for an ICC (accepted locally) because they are not issued to any other EU countries beside UK… and I cannot take the local exam…because it is held only in Czech language!

Therefore, I am running out of options…
I know that Yachmaster qualifications are accepted here, but since I am not familiar with the terms and the courses seem to share (almost) the same names, I confess that I am confused…and here´s where you guys come in :)

Here, besides from the local licences and the ICC, the Czech Republic recognises the following:
Yachmaster “C” (coastal, 20Nm)
Yachmaster “B” (200Nm)
Yachmaster “A” (offshore)

Are these in any way related to the RYA yachtmaster courses or, as “Monty Phyton” would put it… is it something completely different ?

In the end, my problem arises from wanting to sail a Czech flagged boat, so apparently this “yachtmaster” is my “last shot” at it… but I do NOT find these specific courses in the RYA website… :confused:


Any help on clarifying it will be highly valued!
Click to expand...

You can take the ICC in the Algarve ( I'm sure that the nationality question can be overlooked )
 
Tranona said:
This can be met either by the individual citizen holding an appropriate national certificate (Yachtmaster Coastal or its predecessor Coastal Skipper in the UK)
Click to expand...

For the sake of complete accuracy - you actually only require a Day Skipper certificate for the RYA to give you an ICC. And the new Yachtmaster Coastal isn't a simple replacement for Coastal Skipper - the latter still exists as a course completion certificate as before. My parents accidentally (it's a long story) gained it earlier this year.

Pete
 
Just a thought. If you sailed your own trailer/sailer with a Portugese flag, surely you should not require the local certification. If anyone asks, just show them the Potugese certificate. You are not a Czech citizen, but using your own property, so their rules should not apply.

Have you considered asking your local embassy for assistance in this matter.

The other place to try would be the Cruising Association, although their experience with Czech licencing may be very sparse as it does not have a normal coastline.
 
Hi Concerto,

Yes, I have contacted the embassy, but they told me they were not able to help me... and that´s one of the reasons that made me file a complaint with the EU committee. (makes you wonder to what purpose do countries have an embassy...besides providing big salaries to diplomats when abroad. Oh yes... and exchange business cards with the same countrymen that are also working there....in some EU committee) BUT THAT´S ANOTHER STORY... :)

Regarding this story, having a portuguese flagged boat here... it is really not an (legal) option. I have permanent residence in the Czech Republic, so I am obliged to comply with the Czech rules... and having a "vehicle" here for more than an XXX months without re-registering it would not be legal.
Of course one can argue about "when" did the boat actually got in the Czech Republic, but with the number of portuguese flagged boats here AND the number of places really suitable for sailing... I would be an easy target!

I am trying (by all means) to do the correct thing here... but I am running out of options. :(

BTW... regarding my EU complaint, it seems that (at least) the "channel" works. I just got a call from the Portuguese Ministry of Foreign Affairs, asking me more details about the situation !
The channel worked...lets see the outcome.

If anyone has more ideas, please, PLEASE, tell me.
 
Last edited:
messias said:
Regarding this story, having a portuguese flagged boat here... it is really not an (legal) option. I have permanent residence in the Czech Republic, so I am obliged to comply with the Czech rules... I am trying (by all means) to do the correct thing here... but I am running out of options. :(.
Click to expand...

Why not just get an ICC in the Czech republic, as Czechs do? If it's a language problem then perhaps "I am living permanently in your country but want an exemption from your rules because I don't want to learn to speak your language" is a fairly sticky starting point for negotiation, but it might be worth asking if you can use - at your own expense - a translator for the exam.
 
messias said:
Hi Concerto,

Yes, I have contacted the embassy, but they told me they were not able to help me... and that´s one of the reasons that made me file a complaint with the EU committee. (makes you wonder to what purpose do countries have an embassy...besides providing big salaries to diplomats when abroad. Oh yes... and exchange business cards with the same countrymen that are also working there....in some EU committee) BUT THAT´S ANOTHER STORY... :)

Regarding this story, having a portuguese flagged boat here... it is really not an (legal) option. I have permanent residence in the Czech Republic, so I am obliged to comply with the Czech rules... and having a "vehicle" here for more than an XXX months without re-registering it would not be legal.
Of course one can argue about "when" did the boat actually got in the Czech Republic, but with the number of portuguese flagged boats here AND the number of places really suitable for sailing... I would be an easy target!

I am trying (by all means) to do the correct thing here... but I am running out of options. :(

BTW... regarding my EU complaint, it seems that (at least) the "channel" works. I just got a call from the Portuguese Ministry of Foreign Affairs, asking me more details about the situation !
The channel worked...lets see the outcome.

If anyone has more ideas, please, PLEASE, tell me.
Click to expand...

Couple more observations. If you do manage to persuade your government to issue an ICC, make sure it is endorsed for inland waterways. As I explained earlier, the initial pressure for an international certificate came from CEVNI to ensure that all users of the waterways under their control (mainly in France and Germany) had a basic understanding of boat handling and the rules for use of the waterways (rather than the international collision regs). The certificate is therefore issued in 2 forms, the basic competence to handle a boat in coastal waters and, subject to taking a test of the CEVNI rules, an endorsement for "Inland Waterways". Some people have had issues with a basic ICC when visiting other countries and going into rivers or lakes and finding their ICC is not accepted by the local authorities.

The point you raise about "vehicles" is potentially an issue. Although for some purposes (VAT for instance) boats are considered as means of transport, most states do not apply the principle to registration - primarily because registration is an international concept rather than EU. However there is nothing to stop individual states imposing their own conditions on the use of boats in their territories ignoring the international conventions. For example, until recently Spain required non national residents owning boats to register them in Spain and pass the Spanish tests (now no longer the case after protests from the industry) and Portugal has recently decided to require resident boats that are not registered in Portugal to meet the their safety equipment requirements.

You will find many other anomolies related to the ownership and usage of boats across the EU. For most people who cruise between states by sea these do not present significant problems, but when you come to usage within a state as in your case the international conventions that underpin the movements of seagoing boats are not applied and you have no option but to meet local requirements.
 
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