Countdown to the YM triangle race

[Fox Morgan]

It's been two long years since I promised the last fleet of runners and riders of the triangle race 2012 that I would return in 2014, wielding my own boat rather than a media boat, and bring with me an all female contingent.
I wrote all about it from an outsiders (media, non competitive) perspective last time and was so impressed by the camaraderie and general bonhomie that I knew it was just the kind of event I should be joining in with again.

I'm not a hardened racer you see. I hate that "round the cans in big boats" *******s, but when it comes to competitive cruising, I'm yer gal.

It's been a long slog getting my boat up to scratch, which has included a complete re-rig (mast/boom/standing/running rigging) and so much more besides. (you can read my previous posts on here about learning curves there too when it comes to dealing with rigging companies and other so called professionals butchering my boat, only for me to correct it later at my own expense.)

During my long time of preparation I searched for a willing co-skipper. One of my club mates decided she fancied taking her boat along too. We just happen to have the same boat.
So that's two Dehler 36 CWS' both skippered by women.
Now this might not sound very remarkable, but during the last triangle race, there was only one female owner/skipper out of 30odd boats taking part.
Sure there were female co-skippers but none with their name at the top of the list.

I believe in leading by example, so, hopefully some of you readers on here will show your female friends and relatives that it really isn't just a mans game where women reluctantly follow.

To enter this race, a qualifying passage of just 125nm is required. During our first attempt, my steering seized up and we had to limp back to port, covering just 85nm. We went for it again this weekend, despite lousy weather.
You can read about it here: Channel hopping
(beware those easily offended by potty mouth, there is the occasional swear word contained within)

 

[Rigger Mortice]

Frankly I don't care if a crew is all female, all male, or a mix. I just think it's a bit sexist when the gender make up of a crew appears to be so important. I would have hoped that we had got beyond that sometime ago.

 

[jerrytug]

Frankly I don't care if a crew is all female, all male, or a mix. I just think it's a bit sexist when the gender make up of a crew appears to be so important. I would have hoped that we had got beyond that sometime ago.

Well I have gathered that all women yacht crews get a special satisfaction and exhilaration from just the sheer fact of being out there,succeeding in a challenging environment without men, in addition to the joys of sailing.
So all power to their elbows.
I notice the author of the qualifier account linked above (a good read) and her pal were "co-skippers", which fact she mentions without comment, and seems to have worked.
I have tried setting off on a delivery as a co-skipper, who I knew well, (both male), we had to reorganise it to be me one day, him the next. That is, reorganise it after FIVE MINUTES.. when tempers were running high.. we are still mates but that might have been different! Better mates in fact, it rubbed some sharp corners off us.
I hope Sugar Kane publishes some more accounts as I am fascinated by how crews do, or don't, get on. cheers Jerry

 

[dunedin]

Sounds a great adventure. Enjoy and keep us posted

 

[doris]

See you in Torquay Sugar.
Any other forumites in the fleet?

 

[Fox Morgan]

Frankly I don't care if a crew is all female, all male, or a mix. I just think it's a bit sexist when the gender make up of a crew appears to be so important. I would have hoped that we had got beyond that sometime ago.

You speak as someone who is blissfully ignorant of some basic facts then, and if you "would have hoped that we had got beyond that" then you are mistaken. Very much so. If you think I am being sexist to encourage more women to sail then look at the facts of life.

In a marina of 250 boats in Essex, only 4 boats were owned outright and skippered by women. (and one of those used to be a man!)
All of those were sailing boats. Not a single motorboat or ski boat was owned by a woman. Not one.
Yes, there were couples who went sailing together. Out of those couples, there were just two who had equal status in terms of running, sailing and maintaining the vessel. Of all other married partnership boat owners, the man took care of the boat, the woman came along and took on the role of deck hand and cook. (this may be due to an age issue, whereby, most of the boat owners are over 50 and have a slightly different set of gender role ideals)

In my new marina in Gosport, which is easily three times the size of my last marina, I have so far found just one other female owner skipper. (I'm hoping to find more)
out of 600 boats that's an astonishingly low percentage.

What other social/sporting activity has such a low level of ownership as 2%?

In any social activity or sport that is dominated by one gender, you find imbalance and a strange kind of reverence for the minority. So we have this strange situation where any woman who does anything normal that a man would do, such as owning a boat and sailing it, suddenly becomes "action woman" or "lara croft" or some other silly title. A boat skippered by two men racing against a boat skippered by two women, currently and embarrassingly will end up with the women being held on a pedestal, when out of all sporting activities, sailing is one that should be absolutely equal.

What I hope to do by just getting on and encouraging more women to get out there and sail on their own terms, is to bring the balance back a little.

So, Rigger Mortice, park your blissful ignorance a moment and take a look around.

 

[jamesjermain]

Yes - well sort of! I will be in Belladonna shadowing the fleet with a team of YM journos on board and assisting the organisers in Kinsale and Treguier. In addition to Doris I think a couple of other entrants are members here as well - see you all in Torguay.

 

[Fox Morgan]

See you in Torquay James. Here's hoping for moderately breezy weather again!

 

[Sandy]

When is this happening so I can come out and watch?

Racing fleets scare the s_h_one_t out of me and I'd know when they are passing rather get tangled up in them.

 

[Fox Morgan]

When is this happening so I can come out and watch?

Racing fleets scare the sh one t out of me and I'd know when they are passing rather get tangled up in them.

ha ha ha, yes racing fleet start lines scare the b-jeezuz out of me too when it's crowded. This is only a small one of around 30 odd boats, the start time I'm not 100% sure of but it's the morning of Sunday 15th June, leaving from Torquay in the direction of Kinsail.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

You speak as someone who is blissfully ignorant of some basic facts then, and if you "would have hoped that we had got beyond that" then you are mistaken. Very much so. If you think I am being sexist to encourage more women to sail then look at the facts of life.

In a marina of 250 boats in Essex, only 4 boats were owned outright and skippered by women. (and one of those used to be a man!)
All of those were sailing boats. Not a single motorboat or ski boat was owned by a woman. Not one.
Yes, there were couples who went sailing together. Out of those couples, there were just two who had equal status in terms of running, sailing and maintaining the vessel. Of all other married partnership boat owners, the man took care of the boat, the woman came along and took on the role of deck hand and cook. (this may be due to an age issue, whereby, most of the boat owners are over 50 and have a slightly different set of gender role ideals)

In my new marina in Gosport, which is easily three times the size of my last marina, I have so far found just one other female owner skipper. (I'm hoping to find more)
out of 600 boats that's an astonishingly low percentage.

What other social/sporting activity has such a low level of ownership as 2%?

In any social activity or sport that is dominated by one gender, you find imbalance and a strange kind of reverence for the minority. So we have this strange situation where any woman who does anything normal that a man would do, such as owning a boat and sailing it, suddenly becomes "action woman" or "lara croft" or some other silly title. A boat skippered by two men racing against a boat skippered by two women, currently and embarrassingly will end up with the women being held on a pedestal, when out of all sporting activities, sailing is one that should be absolutely equal.

What I hope to do by just getting on and encouraging more women to get out there and sail on their own terms, is to bring the balance back a little.

So, Rigger Mortice, park your blissful ignorance a moment and take a look around.

You make my point very eloquently. You look at a Marina and see it in gender terms. I see a Marina and see boats.

I also know that the vast majority of boats are owned by couples. When we bought our boat, we bought it together. When we sail it, we sail it together and that is exactly the same for the majority of boats that I see when I am on my travels. One of the joys of boating is that it is something that can be done with partners, families and friends. Yes, there are more men involved in it but, so what? There are many leisure pursuits which women are more involved in. Our local Zumba and Pilates classes are a very simple example, but I don't see anyone complaining about those. FWIW I also cycle a lot and there are many women who cycle. More men do, because more choose to take it up. But that is not a gender issue. It is a choice issue.

Just as the vast majority of homes are jointly owned, the vast majority of boats are too. So your 2% figure is just sexist dogma.

In a similar way my yacht club is made up mainly of couples and, for that matter, the committee is pretty much evenly balanced.

There are still important areas where we need to see more women but I don't think we need to introduce gender politics into boating. However, if you do want to introduce political correctness into it perhaps you should be asking about the race of the participants? We see very few black men and women involved.

So, Sugar Kane, wake up and look at the boats, not the genders. We really should have moved on from this kind of gender politics long ago. Meanwhile, I'll continue to enjoy my sailing without minding about the gender of those I sail with. You continue to enjoy your segregated sailing, I'll enjoy my mixed gender sailing.

 

[Fox Morgan]

You make my point very eloquently. You look at a Marina and see it in gender terms. I see a Marina and see boats.

I also know that the vast majority of boats are owned by couples. When we bought our boat, we bought it together. When we sail it, we sail it together and that is exactly the same for the majority of boats that I see when I am on my travels. One of the joys of boating is that it is something that can be done with partners, families and friends. Yes, there are more men involved in it but, so what? There are many leisure pursuits which women are more involved in. Our local Zumba and Pilates classes are a very simple example, but I don't see anyone complaining about those. FWIW I also cycle a lot and there are many women who cycle. More men do, because more choose to take it up. But that is not a gender issue. It is a choice issue.

Just as the vast majority of homes are jointly owned, the vast majority of boats are too. So your 2% figure is just sexist dogma.

In a similar way my yacht club is made up mainly of couples and, for that matter, the committee is pretty much evenly balanced.

There are still important areas where we need to see more women but I don't think we need to introduce gender politics into boating. However, if you do want to introduce political correctness into it perhaps you should be asking about the race of the participants? We see very few black men and women involved.

So, Sugar Kane, wake up and look at the boats, not the genders. We really should have moved on from this kind of gender politics long ago. Meanwhile, I'll continue to enjoy my sailing without minding about the gender of those I sail with. You continue to enjoy your segregated sailing, I'll enjoy my mixed gender sailing.

And predictably Rigger Mortice you completely missed my ENTIRE point.
You are a happy couple, who own a boat together.
Great. That's great. You are part of the happy mediocrity. I'm guessing you are male and middleaged.
If you were not married, you would probably still own a boat and continue sailing. If your (I assume) female partner were to be single, would she have her own boat and sail? Hypothetically speaking? I would hedge my bets and say no.

I'm not campaigning for anything or trying to segregate, quite the opposite, I'm trying to integrate reluctant or shy people to embrace and indeed get bitten by the bug of sailing, on their own terms and not just because its expected. I'm saying that because of the minimal numbers of women who choose to sail and own their own boat, that we are looked upon as something of a novelty.
And I want to be taken seriously just like anyone else, not be looked upon as token. I demanded my old club remove the "ladies race" from its race calendar. because it was sexist. There should be NO special treatment. No singling out.
Look how many women were able to compete in the Americas cup (NONE)
Look how many women are professional yachts people (extreme minority)

I don't look at boats and see gender. What I do see though, is so many men sailing alone or scratching around for friends to join them because their partners don't like it and refuse to go sailing. Mostly because they have been scared at some point and put off completely. I think it's a terrible shame. And to go back to my original post, I lead by example. (indeed the gentleman I bought my boat from, his wife wouldn't even step foot on the pontoon)

I'm a cycle coach, I ran womens race days and training days. which was a success and continues to grow and grow via other supporters to the point this year we have the first signs of womens racing being taken seriously and televised.
I'm also a motorbiker. I always encourage women to get off the pillion seat and learn to ride, to take part in track days and do their own maintenance. This isn't to make them ride away from their partners, but to be more equal, and from my experience, the men love it when their partners embrace shared interests wholly and with the same passion.

Of course, being an eligible youthful(ish) bachelorette, the current lack of single women on the scene does mean I can pretty much take my pick ;-)

 

[robmcg]

Of course, being an eligible youthful(ish) bachelorette, the current lack of single women on the scene does mean I can pretty much take my pick ;-)

Unfortunately, slim pickings on these forums!

Rob

 

[Sandy]

ha ha ha, yes racing fleet start lines scare the b-jeezuz out of me too when it's crowded. This is only a small one of around 30 odd boats, the start time I'm not 100% sure of but it's the morning of Sunday 15th June, leaving from Torquay in the direction of Kinsail.

Thanks for the info, we might pop round and watch from a safe distance.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

And predictably Rigger Mortice you completely missed my ENTIRE point.
You are a happy couple, who own a boat together.
Great. That's great. You are part of the happy mediocrity. I'm guessing you are male and middleaged.
If you were not married, you would probably still own a boat and continue sailing. If your (I assume) female partner were to be single, would she have her own boat and sail? Hypothetically speaking? I would hedge my bets and say no.

I'm not campaigning for anything or trying to segregate, quite the opposite, I'm trying to integrate reluctant or shy people to embrace and indeed get bitten by the bug of sailing, on their own terms and not just because its expected. I'm saying that because of the minimal numbers of women who choose to sail and own their own boat, that we are looked upon as something of a novelty.
And I want to be taken seriously just like anyone else, not be looked upon as token. I demanded my old club remove the "ladies race" from its race calendar. because it was sexist. There should be NO special treatment. No singling out.
Look how many women were able to compete in the Americas cup (NONE)
Look how many women are professional yachts people (extreme minority)

I don't look at boats and see gender. What I do see though, is so many men sailing alone or scratching around for friends to join them because their partners don't like it and refuse to go sailing. Mostly because they have been scared at some point and put off completely. I think it's a terrible shame. And to go back to my original post, I lead by example. (indeed the gentleman I bought my boat from, his wife wouldn't even step foot on the pontoon)

I'm a cycle coach, I ran womens race days and training days. which was a success and continues to grow and grow via other supporters to the point this year we have the first signs of womens racing being taken seriously and televised.
I'm also a motorbiker. I always encourage women to get off the pillion seat and learn to ride, to take part in track days and do their own maintenance. This isn't to make them ride away from their partners, but to be more equal, and from my experience, the men love it when their partners embrace shared interests wholly and with the same passion.

Of course, being an eligible youthful(ish) bachelorette, the current lack of single women on the scene does mean I can pretty much take my pick ;-)

And equally predictably you are refusing to see the point I was making.

However, I'll start with the silly "happy mediocrity" comment. It's not the way to support your stance by starting off with patronising judgements for which you have no real knowledge. You are just resorting to stereotypes....and you may well just be another strident feminist screaching at somebody who happens to disagree with them........ You see, I can do it just as well so it's probably best if we just stick to the issue under discussion. Yes?

My whole point is that you are littering your posts with "women this" "women that". You then say you want to be treated equally with no special treatment or tokenism. You can't have it both ways. If you want to be treated equally, fine.....I'm genuinely 100% in support......as I hope my history of posting here will show and I believe my actions and attitude in the real world will also show. But, and it is a big but, when your whole driving force appears to be based on gender rather than sailing then, yes, I take issue with you. When that results in you making a big issue about segregated women only boats then, I'm sorry, but that is pure sexism. In boating men and women can both make good sailors and there is no need for gender to be an issue; unless you choose to make it so.

When you then conjure up figures about boat ownership to make it appear to be a gender issue then, I'm sorry, but that is once more just pure sexism.

Your point about women embracing their partners shared interests is exactly what I was saying earlier. Just as men also embrace the interests that their partners have. The battle between the sexes in their relationships was over years ago.
The battle continues in business and politics

In the meanwhile enjoy your sailing. But if you choose to make an issue about gender, then expect others to make an issue about it if you are being sexist.

Your final sentence was also pretty sexist. Just as it would be if I joined your crew, or our local Zumba class, and made a similar comment. Equality cuts both ways.

 

[Fox Morgan]

And equally predictably you are refusing to see the point I was making.

Rigger Mortice, I generally avoid forum conversation for exactly this kind of conversation. each missing the others point. I suggest you and I meet for a proper discussion to settle this off air.

I AM a feminist. I support 100% equality of both sexes and by supporting/encouraging a minority within certain sports, that makes what I do positive sexism, as opposed to negative sexism such as supporting inequality and a patriarchal society.
Feminism is NOT a dirty word. It is a movement. It is supported by men as well as women.

I sail with mixed crew, I always have. Most of the time I have been the only woman in amongst many many men. It can be intimidating. fact. It can put women off joining in. fact.
The best crews I've been part of are mixed crews. But to have a mixed crew in the first place, some women need a little encouragement, in a way that suits them, to build confidence and experience. Often that means being in the company of other women or at the very least a mixed crew.
By recognising different approaches in teaching and training, there may be a better retention of women in sailing and indeed a more positive image of women taking the helm, planning the passages, hoisting as well as trimming sails, working foredeck, covering night watch equally, being 100% on all aspects of safety and maintenance, being able to strip an engine down out at sea and fix it, being able to maintain the boat and repair things on the go, able to don a wet suit and clear a fouled prop. If you wince at your female partner doing any of the above, then there's a clear inequality.

THIS is what I'm talking about. By just getting on, doing what I do, doing what I've always done and get my hands dirty, writing about it in a positive, but honest way, by being a regular Joe, this acts as a positive role model for others who can identify with me. (and that's very often other women, but does include men as well - I'm not head counting)
By even daring to mention that there aren't many women independently sailing, does that make me sexist? No it makes me observant.

You'd love my other discriminatory activity of encouraging disabled people to sail as well.

If you want to understand the base level of discrimination faced in sailing, have a look at the clothing available. look at what is available for men and then look at what is available for women? Supply and demand. If there is no demand, there is no supply. I aim to increase that demand.

I don't normally bang on about it like this on a public forum, its far more subtle than that.
I trust you will come along and wave off the triangleurs from Torquay on sunday 15th June?

 

[MJWF]

Rigger Mortice - pedantic point here but might help resolve the disagreement.

Sexism/racism etc is unfair discrimination on the basis of prejudice. It often relies on (fallacious) arguments that an observed or believed association is causative (typically argued by invoking the principles of genetics but without any detailed mechanism ). For example to argue "That very few women sail and that is because they aren't any good at it and and that makes it less interesting for men so we won't let them join our sailing club" would be sexist. Simply pointing out that very few women are engaged in sailing independently of a male partner is just describing a fact.

For someone to attempt to address this observed imbalance by encouraging more women to sail independently in all female crews is also not sexist, there is no argument about the sailing qualities of different sexes that I can see. You may be of the opinion that focussing on the sailing is more important than focussing on the gender balance (I would agree) but it isn't sexism because while there may be discrimination there isn't any unfair prejudice (that women are "better" in some sense than men).

It is an interesting point and crops up often - it could just as easily be recast to discuss whether ukip statements about not wanting to live next to a Romanian is racist? (but perhaps lets not go there on a sailing forum..)

 

[Fox Morgan]

Your final sentence was also pretty sexist. Just as it would be if I joined your crew, or our local Zumba class, and made a similar comment. Equality cuts both ways.

And that is not sexist, that's fact of life, if you were the only youthful man in the midst of a mature group of women, you'd get your fair share of attention.
But, you can also keep your zumba.
I've got far better things to do.
Like buttering myself allover, sticking bread to it and letting the seagulls peck it off.

#justsayin

 

[Rigger Mortice]

Rigger Mortice, I generally avoid forum conversation for exactly this kind of conversation. each missing the others point. I suggest you and I meet for a proper discussion to settle this off air.

I AM a feminist. I support 100% equality of both sexes and by supporting/encouraging a minority within certain sports, that makes what I do positive sexism, as opposed to negative sexism such as supporting inequality and a patriarchal society.
Feminism is NOT a dirty word. It is a movement. It is supported by men as well as women.

I sail with mixed crew, I always have. Most of the time I have been the only woman in amongst many many men. It can be intimidating. fact. It can put women off joining in. fact.
The best crews I've been part of are mixed crews. But to have a mixed crew in the first place, some women need a little encouragement, in a way that suits them, to build confidence and experience. Often that means being in the company of other women or at the very least a mixed crew.
By recognising different approaches in teaching and training, there may be a better retention of women in sailing and indeed a more positive image of women taking the helm, planning the passages, hoisting as well as trimming sails, working foredeck, covering night watch equally, being 100% on all aspects of safety and maintenance, being able to strip an engine down out at sea and fix it, being able to maintain the boat and repair things on the go, able to don a wet suit and clear a fouled prop. If you wince at your female partner doing any of the above, then there's a clear inequality.

THIS is what I'm talking about. By just getting on, doing what I do, doing what I've always done and get my hands dirty, writing about it in a positive, but honest way, by being a regular Joe, this acts as a positive role model for others who can identify with me. (and that's very often other women, but does include men as well - I'm not head counting)
By even daring to mention that there aren't many women independently sailing, does that make me sexist? No it makes me observant.

You'd love my other discriminatory activity of encouraging disabled people to sail as well.

If you want to understand the base level of discrimination faced in sailing, have a look at the clothing available. look at what is available for men and then look at what is available for women? Supply and demand. If there is no demand, there is no supply. I aim to increase that demand.

I don't normally bang on about it like this on a public forum, its far more subtle than that.
I trust you will come along and wave off the triangleurs from Torquay on sunday 15th June?

I think we've taken this a far as we can and I would be happy to meet up at sometime in the future. Sadly though, my boat is not yet in the water and it probably won't be getting wet for a few weeks as my other half is getting over a minor, but slow to recover, operation on her foot.

Suffice to say, I am all for equality but I do strongly believe that it cuts both ways. It is not about people being the same, it is about people being able to make their contribution with whatever talents they may have. If I see sexist behaviour by anyone, regardless of their gender, I feel fully entitled to comment on it.

As for clothing, most guys probably care little about it. So long as it is functional, keeps them warm and dry that's all that really matters. Sizes and cuts are available for women but, if you are suggesting that women need more, then I have to ask, as you raised the issue, if you are not slipping into stereotypical behaviour yourself? What I do know is that when we bought our last lot of wet weather gear we ended up with the same stuff...one male set, one female set. Frankly I think that matching gear looks a bit silly, but what the heck.

Enjoy you sailing. I can only ask you to see the men as equals; not the enemy.

 

[Fox Morgan]

RM, regarding the kit, have a look at the major clothing websites (musto, henri lloyd, Gill, helly hansen).
boot choice, how many of the really good sailing boots are in a size small enough for women? My co-skip has to wear ski boots as she cant find any warm sailing boots to fit.
offshore kit, how many choices do women have compared to the men? a mere fraction.
And I think you'll find that most men (the ones I know at least) are very keen on looking stylish as well as comfortable while they sail or go about their sporting activities. That's why there's plenty of choice for them.

Motorbiking apparel suffers the same imbalance, the chaps get top notch kit, awesome one piece suits, boots and gloves in race rep colours, but the ladies, well, they get mid range stuff in pretty foo foo colours, finding kit good enough for a track day or serious sport riding is a right faff. And cycling, it's starting to balance out and for that I am truly grateful. I used to have to buy mens skin suits to race in and get my grandmother to take them in.

Anyone who knows me, knows that I certainly don't regard men as "the enemy"
far from it ;-)