Countdown to the YM triangle race

[Rigger Mortice]

Rigger Mortice - pedantic point here but might help resolve the disagreement.

Sexism/racism etc is unfair discrimination on the basis of prejudice. It often relies on (fallacious) arguments that an observed or believed association is causative (typically argued by invoking the principles of genetics but without any detailed mechanism ). For example to argue "That very few women sail and that is because they aren't any good at it and and that makes it less interesting for men so we won't let them join our sailing club" would be sexist. Simply pointing out that very few women are engaged in sailing independently of a male partner is just describing a fact.

For someone to attempt to address this observed imbalance by encouraging more women to sail independently in all female crews is also not sexist, there is no argument about the sailing qualities of different sexes that I can see. You may be of the opinion that focussing on the sailing is more important than focussing on the gender balance (I would agree) but it isn't sexism because while there may be discrimination there isn't any unfair prejudice (that women are "better" in some sense than men).

It is an interesting point and crops up often - it could just as easily be recast to discuss whether ukip statements about not wanting to live next to a Romanian is racist? (but perhaps lets not go there on a sailing forum..)

I can't really argue with most of that, and I do understand what discrimination is.

I also understand that jumping to conclusions based on poor evidence can also be discriminatory. That is why I took issue about the claims which Sugar Kane was making about boat ownership in marinas being nearly all male (98% I think was implied). That is about as ridiculous as driving down any street and stating that nearly all the homes are owned by men...or for that matter by women. A claim like that is biased and prejudiced. It does not reflect reality.

I have no problem at all with women sailing. I don't care if they choose to have all women crews; I just think it is sad that it is suggested that a single sex segregated boat has something special to offer. If a crew made an issue of the fact that it was all male (and many are) then they would be accused of being sexist. The same applies to a female crew. However, if a crew happens to be single sex but just gets on with the business of sailing then that is an entirely different matter. I thought we had progressed further than SK thinks we have; I think it is a rather dated outlook.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

RM, regarding the kit, have a look at the major clothing websites (musto, henri lloyd, Gill, helly hansen).
boot choice, how many of the really good sailing boots are in a size small enough for women? My co-skip has to wear ski boots as she cant find any warm sailing boots to fit.
offshore kit, how many choices do women have compared to the men? a mere fraction.
And I think you'll find that most men (the ones I know at least) are very keen on looking stylish as well as comfortable while they sail or go about their sporting activities. That's why there's plenty of choice for them.

Motorbiking apparel suffers the same imbalance, the chaps get top notch kit, awesome one piece suits, boots and gloves in race rep colours, but the ladies, well, they get mid range stuff in pretty foo foo colours, finding kit good enough for a track day or serious sport riding is a right faff. And cycling, it's starting to balance out and for that I am truly grateful. I used to have to buy mens skin suits to race in and get my grandmother to take them in.

Anyone who knows me, knows that I certainly don't regard men as "the enemy"
far from it ;-)

Final comment.
I can't really say much about clothing; it just isn't something which ranks high on my list of priorities. I have a good set of gear (Henri Lloyd, Gill? Something like that, I really don't know) but I mostly wear a sailing jacket from Lidl (£25, incredibly good value. Available in mens and women's styles). Boots? I've got a pair, I often wear my other half's, sometimes I wear horse riders "yard" boots (available in many styles, particularly for women....more women seem to be into horse riding than men. Is that a sex discrimination issue?). Sometimes I just wear wellies.

My point, is that I just don't think clothing is much of an issue. You do. But to describe it as some kind of feminist issue and to raise it under the heading of discrimination is, frankly, ludicrous. As you said, it reflects supply and demand, and to expect manufacturers to supply product for which there is no demand is not being realistic. As you said in a different context; that's not sexist. It's a simple fact of life.....and the facts of life work both ways.

The same comments apply to both cycling and motorcycling.

To illustrate the point from a male perspective...If I go clothes shopping (as rarely as possible!) I can never find what I really want, so I just get something that is OK'ish or I go home empty handed. But if I look down the High Street I see far more clothes shops, and choice, for women. Those shops that cater for both men and women devote far more space to women's fashion. Is that sexism and discrimination? Of course it isn't. It is simply a reflection of supply and demand. In other words in making a feminist/discrimination case for one type of clothing you are disregarding the other side of the argument. You can't have it both ways; if you are really arguing for Equality you have to argue it equally.

Enjoy your sailing.

 

[Fox Morgan]

You've jumped on the feminist word with gusto. I get the impression you aren't particularly keen on us men hating bra burning hairy types... (this is ironic, I am being ironic, because I am none of those, unless I was to lean over the cooker for too long, in which case, my bra may very well burn, but I doubt I'd be very hairy after that)

I simply said, to get an idea of any sport and its bias, just look at what clothing is available for said sport.

You brought up horse riding as an example, yes, one of my best friends (a man) laments the lack of available good quality clothing for chaps of his stature. (he's very tall)
In the same way I lament the lack of good quality sailing kit available for ladies.

I always wear the very best I can afford. You pretty much get what you pay for. And when offshore for days at a time, in often challenging conditions, you really do feel the benefit of both good fitting and well made clothing.
I keep spare kit that I can lend to beginners because it can make all the difference between really enjoying sailing and hating it because of being cold wet and uncomfortable.
And since I'm not a bull-dyke and actually have a female shape, I do need clothes made to fit me and not a generic unisex thing.

in addition to the boat ownership, which is heading back to my original note,
I should add, that my family used to run a boat brokerage business. I have historical documentation to back up boat ownership being skewed between 95-97% male ownership. This is also partly due to bills of sale being completed with one name, and more often than not it tends to be the husband with his name on it. So in theory I suppose the couple own it jointly, on paper this isn't the case. However nitpicking the minutiae of this kind of boat sale and joint ownership doesn't reflect on single ownership as I originally mentioned.

The fact you don't believe it, demonstrates how absurd this is. I wouldn't believe it either had I not been part of the business.

When I went to view/buy my current boat, the broker looked past me at the airport, expecting I would have a male counterpart, and even said as much. He was fine though obviously when he realised it was just me who'd flown over for the viewing. An excellent broker as it happens. Bigup boatshed Gibraltar!
When buying the previous boat, the broker insisted on talking to my male partner, despite my partner not actually speaking much English at that point in time and that it was me buying and negotiating on the boat not him.

I totally understand this isn't done on purpose. it's just habit.

 

[Greenheart]

Sugar Kane,

can I be a steward on your boat? Not a race-steward, more like an Edwardian gentleman's gentleman. I'll dress like Jeeves, make cocktails, pick up discarded bits of clothing, wash up, respond with old-world decorum when I'm jostled by the crew, and generally endeavour to maintain a ridiculously high-profile, stiff-backed air of male superfluity.

Honestly, I'd like to, it'd be funny.

 

[Fox Morgan]

Sugar Kane,

can I be a steward on your boat? Not a race-steward, more like an Edwardian gentleman's gentleman. I'll dress like Jeeves, make cocktails, pick up discarded bits of clothing, wash up, respond with old-world decorum when I'm jostled by the crew, and generally endeavour to maintain a ridiculously high-profile, stiff-backed air of male superfluity.

Honestly, I'd like to, it'd be funny.

That has got to be one of the most creative ways of asking to join the crew!
Brilliant!
I'd hope there might be a monocle involved somewhere along with A jeeves style level of understanding of all things worldly and wise.

 

[AuntyRinum]

Sugar Kane,

can I be a steward on your boat? Not a race-steward, more like an Edwardian gentleman's gentleman. I'll dress like Jeeves, make cocktails, pick up discarded bits of clothing, wash up, respond with old-world decorum when I'm jostled by the crew, and generally endeavour to maintain a ridiculously high-profile, stiff-backed air of male superfluity.

Honestly, I'd like to, it'd be funny.

Having done the YM Triangle myself, I know that a stunt like that would go down very well with the organisers and other crews. Very much in the spirit of the event.

 

[Greenheart]

It would be a new branch of reality television to have a TV feed from on board...5 a.m., and crew coming below at dawn lounge exhaustedly on the sofas...one of them bangs on a tiny locker door and a slightly disheveled character from Downton Abbey tumbles out with a sugar bowl and a polite "Good Morning, ma'am".

I doubt there could be a more high-profile expression of women's comprehensive competence in a male-dominated area, than some silly ass like me in formal dress, sliding all over the decks grasping a silver salver while the sure-footed crew make another perfect tack. Although it might border on Harold Lloyd, more about me than the yacht's efficiency.

Maybe the crew could publicise a motto based on the footman's comic incompetence..."you can't get distaff these days".

 

[onesea]

OK not really careing about the male / female thing. On a boat as far as I am concerned it makes no difference.

The sad thing to me is stopping a ladies race...

The sailing club I grew up in had one, it was treated like the mates race. The fact mum got the ladies race, sister the mates race and me as the youngest second mates race.

They where fun races part of the season. During the season we all had a go at all positions on the boat but those races where our races.

They where fun to do and added to the seasons sailing.

I wonder how many ladies will miss the chance to have ago because of the lack of that race, will not become the competent helm.. How many are happier crewing but enjoyed that one race a year.

Yes I own the boat in our family, only because I am the higher earner and the one with most experience. I think that will be the case for many sailing couples.

Although I cannot say the attitude of many men does not help women into sailing. How many single women can afford to run a boat? Particularly when crew (I might even say particularly female crew, but that would be out of order) can easily find sailing.

When we bought our present boat the brokers where all perplexed she looked at the rig discussing how to handle it. Whilst I looked at the cabin layout.

I may be owner/skipper but she is the offshore manager in charge. Look below the surface you will find many boats like that.

Given a start line of aggressive helms she would hand me the tiller. If she can do a ladies race, I am sure given that start she would start on the most aggressive start line.

 

[flaming]

Sugar Kane. What's your view on the women's open keelboat regatta? The Élan has done it a couple if times with our girls.

I love sailing with girls. Having a couple of girls in the crew dials down the stress levels considerably. I also don't think it was a coincidence that the year we won the nationals (in 30 kts) we had 6 girls in the crew out of 9.

But... I recently put an add for crew on the Cowes week website. So far I've had 5 replies. Would anyone like to guess the male/female split?

 

[Greenheart]

Would anyone like to guess the male/female split?

Is that the same as the men/women/girls split?

 

[Lucky Duck]

But... I recently put an add for crew on the Cowes week website. So far I've had 5 replies. Would anyone like to guess the male/female split?

Total guess - mostly female? (But I have this nagging feeling it was all blokes )

 

[Fox Morgan]

Onesea,
The idea of binning the ladies race was thus:
We already had 3 out of 7 regular boats racing with a lady on the helm. All crews were mixed. I never care exactly who does what exactly, but the idea of having a race where only women could steer seemed utterly ridiculous and outdated. Bring any youngsters along and they would be highly perplexed why such an outdated concept would be allowed to persist, under the name of traditionalism.
Well pardon me, but it's time for a change.
Not to dissuade any nervous person taking the helm, the race was renamed "novice helm" and as such be more inclusive to more people who wanted to have a go at steering for the first time. Since I was always helm on my little boat, it meant I could step aside and hand the tiller to the guy who did foredeck. On other boats, the wives who normally did trimming took their turn to steer. It was all very civilised and fun.
So I would implore all clubs to ditch the outdated notion that women are nervous and need molly codling with a special gender specific race in order for them to compete.

And flaming, my view on a women's open keelboat regatta? Meh. I'd much prefer to see mixed crews and mixed boats. Sure, some boats might end up all men or all women, doesn't really matter. But sailing, is sailing, is sailing. It is an equal playing field. I love that I can compete equally against anyone, man, woman or child. Andif we are all on the same kind of boat, more or less...its brilliant fun.

 

[Fox Morgan]

Yes I own the boat in our family, only because I am the higher earner and the one with most experience. I think that will be the case for many sailing couples.

Although I cannot say the attitude of many men does not help women into sailing. How many single women can afford to run a boat? Particularly when crew (I might even say particularly female crew, but that would be out of order) can easily find sailing.

How many single women can afford to run a boat? How many single men can afford to run a boat?
We are the same.
Im sure I could find easy sailing on someone elses boat. But why would I? My boat is mine. I make all the decisions. I decide what crew come on board. (Close friends)
Sure, its not cheap. Not by a long way. A long long long way. But, I wouldn't change it for anything!

 

[onesea]

Sugar I think your missing my point.

I think anything that gives all a chance at sailing is a good thing.

The mates races & second mates races I mentioned where not just for males. It was for novices juniors those that did not own boats etc etc the women's race is just another aspect. Of it gave females an extra chance is that a bad thing?

As you say running a boat can be expensive and the so often quoted inequality in the work place says owning a boat must be implicated in this.

Good on you I am glad that your club is so different. Sadly some I have seen females are not so at the front so every encouragement should be given.

I have no issues with mixed crews single sex crews mixed nationality crews or any other combination.

Sailing is a great sport where all ages and sex's can be brought together on a level ish playing field.

I also see no reason why it should always be like that. Just because you do not see this please do obstruct others who enjoy these events.

 

[flaming]

Total guess - mostly female? (But I have this nagging feeling it was all blokes )

5:1 in favour of female. (1 more this evening)

No reply from you though...!

To be honest this split is pretty normal. I don't think sailing (and especially racing) has a problem with attracting women. I can only think of one regular female helm on a cruiser racer in the Solent though.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

. All crews were mixed. I never care exactly who does what exactly, but the idea of having a race where only women could steer seemed utterly ridiculous and outdated. Bring any youngsters along and they would be highly perplexed why such an outdated concept would be allowed to persist, under the name of traditionalism.
Well pardon me, but it's time for a change.

That's exactly what I was saying about deliberately segregated boats that you took me to task about. As I said, gender should be irrelevant in sailing and replacing one form of sexism with another is not, in my view, the way to change things. If a boat happens to end up single sexed, fine. But to set out to make it single sex is just an outdated idea. It's sad that we haven't progressed further.

 

[the-drifter]

Wow, people can argue ( debate) over anything, i would be happy to get any crew, regardless of gender. i see it like this, on any boat you would be glad of the help regardless of Gender

 

[doris]

Headline is 'Countdown to YM Triangle Race'. WTF has that got to do with sexism in sailing.
Sugar, one of your neighbours, Deb Fish on Exocet won the SORC Great Escape series last weekend in awful conditions. She did the last Triangle I believe but what has gender got to do with it.
As Flaming said, girls on board are a civilising influence but what has this to do with the Triangle? Just get your snagging list done and see you shortly.

 

[Fox Morgan]

Headline is 'Countdown to YM Triangle Race'. WTF has that got to do with sexism in sailing.
Sugar, one of your neighbours, Deb Fish on Exocet won the SORC Great Escape series last weekend in awful conditions. She did the last Triangle I believe but what has gender got to do with it.
As Flaming said, girls on board are a civilising influence but what has this to do with the Triangle? Just get your snagging list done and see you shortly.

All I said was, yay, I'm looking forward to it, and that I've got an all female team, which will be the first on the triangle for years. When I attended the last triangle I noted how few female skippers there were and then spent the last 2 years seeing of there was any more who fancied doing it. As it happens, there's now two of us, both with dehler 36cws' and both from Essex. I then found a top helms person to join me, who also happens to be female, but the reason I asked her was because she's good! Not because she's a she.

What I was alluding to was, that this is going to be FUN!
Two boats that have been dying to match race for some time offshore away from the crouch.

I can't wait! !!

Im not sure we can compete with big doris, given our limited sail inventory, but I'm going to have a go.

 

[Greenheart]

Are any of the women who own a Dehler, called Adela?