Could it get much worse

[milltech]

Re: Interesting conundrum

I think that sailing is sailing and so it's unlikely that one small group of jounalists however good is going to come up with as much varied copy as a magazine that was to encourage freelance articles from gifted amateurs, if only because the Editor of a magazine based on a system like that would have so much more varied experiences to chose from.

I remember BM&Y in years past publishing splendid freelance articles on transatlantic motorboating, and cruises to Svalbard, and God Knows Where else. Now it seems to be "past the cans to Calais and back". Perhaps I'm being unfair, it wouldn't be the first time I've banged a drum in error, and I reluctantly admit that Calais and back is probably a most interesting article if you've never been there. I can see the channel could seem like the Atlantic first time out. It just doesn't do it for me, I'd like my imagination stirred by more intrepid stuff.

Also I think that where specialist subjects are concerned the "in-house" approach can go wrong. As these forums show there is an enormous fund of the most amazing in-depth knowledge that truly impresses me. I can think of no better way of doing an in-house test than to select some of the contributors here to take part. (BTW I'm not trying to put myself forward, I sell cardboard boxes with things inside and know almost nothing about them).

I do however know of one particular instance in a non IPC magazine quite recently where an article by *** ******* was just plain wrong on almost every count, recommending bird-watching binoculars for marine use, and discounting the only example that came close to being suitable. Since then I keep seeing leaflets saying, "recommended by "magazine" for products that are wholly unsuited to the job.

I realise I'm approaching foagy-ism a little to fast, (and exhibiting all the signs of becoming "angry of Finchampstead"), but I seem to find my interest limited to the pilotage articles YM and ST for awkward entrances to less well know places.

<hr width=100% size=1>John
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.allgadgets.co.uk>http://www.allgadgets.co.uk</A>

 

[Guest]

Re: Interesting conundrum

Working within the industry, it is extremely infuriating reading articles written by a non expert. There are certain subject that are just too critical (either on a reliability or safety) to leave to someone who is just summarising a subject.

I write the electrical articles within PBO. As an electrical engineer myself (and working for 15 yrs in the industry), I ensure that my writings are checked by AT LEAST two other engineers before submission to the magazine.

I've read several articles in various magazines & books that are dangerously incorrect (on AC electrics). I wonder if any magazine has ever been sued for giving bum advice within its pages...?

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[kimhollamby]

Further waffle

<font size=1>I've read several articles in various magazines & books that are dangerously incorrect (on AC electrics). I wonder if any magazine has ever been sued for giving bum advice within its pages...?</font size=1>

It has to be said I've worked on many dangerously incorrect boats over the years too...not all of them DIY lash-ups. My favourites are some of the 1980s motoryachts out of Taiwan where you open a cupboard door and find bare terminals for the 240V socket alongside. The same boats sometimes add the extra thrill of tingling hands as you grab a deck rail while the genny is doing its thing. Such thrills were installed as standard...no need to tick an options box.

I'm not aware of any specific legal actions against poor magazine advice, although it has got to have happened somewhere in America and quite possibly in UK too, or at least an attempt to, which can be just as penalising once you factor in countless hours spent in a huddle dealing with issues arising.

One of my regular computer magazine reads recently had to admit to having published a bit of 'useful' code that resulted in instant melt-down of the hard drive for those that tried it. The apology seemed quite low key, I sensed in part because perhaps there was a fear of legal action...the way things are these days I expect some feel as strongly about losing data as they would hooking themselves up to a cocktail of water and 240V.

Not that anyone here needs a court room as an incentive for wanting to get things right.

Actually, one of the scariest things about researching certain marine areas is the amount of conflicting advice that one soon starts to gather, especially in the electrical area. Batteries and charging are topics that immediately come to mind...the rise of the solid state charger and some of the characters involved in developing them have given some of the mag teams enormous headaches, as just one example.

I would imagine, without stirring it too much, that Merlin has some disagreements in opinion with competitors over best practice, BMEA code, directives and standards or no?

There's a further issue too, namely that some of the best on-the-job fixes don't make reponsible (aka legally safe) reading in print, and yet they could be great get out of jail cards.

Sorry, waffling again. At least no-one could ever claim the jobs over here are boring -- certainly not on the technical side anyway.

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[kimhollamby]

Splendid freelance articles on Atlantic xsings...

...require splendid freelancers to be doing the crossings. Not happening that often in the motorboating world (you did mean MB&Y I presume?) although MBM is still tracking the Jauncey family who did a transatlantic in a homebuilt 40-footer a few years back, the magazine's own John Walker was ops director on the Irens-designed Cable & Wireless circumnavigation, Tony Fleming has submitted the odd account or two of adventures on his own trawler yachts in the same title and MBY was able to follow a world-girdling Nordhavn 46 for a while. Plus of course we've recently seen the exploits of Priddy, Grillis et al in RIBs although I suspect they don't really count in terms of an ordinary boatowner's turn-on scale.

Not so much on the motorboating side but certainly some of our yachting editors have a huge choice of submitted freelance material from which to choose. However (and that's a big however) the standards often swing somewhere between poor and average in terms of the language used and supporting material. Plus there are often quite a few technical inaccuracies to sort out. Sad to say we don't see much sign of improvement in literacy among many of the submissions.

Well written, well researched articles produced from sound knowledge do rise like cream and are accepted with open arms, but other submissions, often the ones that broaden horizons, usually need a lot of work. In doing that work there is of course always the danger that other inaccuracies can be introduced through misintepretation.

A bad example but I cannot resist telling the small tale of how, many moons ago, I was faced with a horribly dry sentence among dryish paragraphs in a freelance submission, something along the lines of "the sun slowly rose and we had breakfast." Having logged a reasonable share of night passages I knew the scene in that wheelhouse to be far more attractive than that -- I could almost SMELL the breakfast and feel the first rays of morning on my face for goodness sake, so in my wisdom I rewrote it something along the lines of: "Dawn came slowly as the bacon and mushroom sandwiches appeared, which brought smiles to the faces of the weary crew." Fortunately I had a very good sub editor...

I could of course go on to bore you with further Dennis Nordenesque moments but I've just realised I really ought to go and catch a train!

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[Novice]

Re: Heard this before

I am new to sailing, hence my chosen forum name, but I have been a keen model aircraft builder and flyer for many years. As such, I'm a member of a number of internet forums on the subject, and invariably, from time to time there is a thread on how crap the magazines which serve the hobby have become.

My response usually runs along the lines of "If you can do better, whats stopping you?" The comment about how the people who write for the magazines being journalists rather than sailors is particularly rich. Given the amount of time that some people seem to spend on this forum, why not devote some of that time to writing the sort of article that you would like to read in the magazine? After all, it can't be that hard, can it?

Jon

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[Guest]

Re: Further waffle

Oh yes..... not sure where I should start...

We see dreadful things on board many - even brand new boats with gear installed by professionals. The problem is that the industry is full of hobbyists who have (or think they have) a reasonable idea about what is good/bad practice. A reasonable idea simply isn't good enough. Many house electricians (with 16th edition qualifications) apply for engineering positions here. Being an "electrician" isn't actually good enough. Ok - for 230V stuff but not DC electrics. DC and AC principles are very different. The BMEA codes are pretty good - however, we've found the US ABYC and UL standards to be much more stringent on safety.

Merlin's marine division is not the major part of the business. Most of our equipment is in use today on applications diverse as F1 trucks to front line paramedic vehicles to battle tanks and outside broadcast vehicles. These customers DEMAND absolute conformity to far more stringent standards, proper technical back up and real testing on products. Without having professional engineers and resources on board, these markets simply aren't available to the average hobbyist. Coincidently, those same Merlin engineers also back up our people in the marine division - with real, true, safe and accurate advice. This has worked for us in the marine industry with customers such as the RNLI, Sunseeker and Ellen MacArthur - as well as many "normal" boat owners now onboard.

I think I may know the "character" to whom you may refer - "infamous character" is probably the most polite term to use (if we are referring to the same person, the entire industry would, for once be in agreement!). He has tried but now doesn't sell to markets (in any quantity) outside of the marine one for the reasons given above.

In summary, Its really difficult. As a boat owner, I complete pretty much everything on a DIY basis (except for rigging and GRP work which always goes horribly wrong). However, I firmly believe that for certain aspects, things are best left to the professionals. There are calls from some people within the industry that 230V AC work on board would have to be either completed by or checked by a qualified electrician (much like gas has to be installed by a CORGI fitter).

In some ways I am very much in favour of such a law (not from a business position - we don't install equipment, so it wouldn't benefit us), simply because some one will kill either themselves or worse, next doors child. However, it would be a real shame. Boat owners and the industry have to take a responsible attitude towards safety - this being based on properly qualified technical advice (not by some salesman trying to sell his new fangled product).

On the last point, I agree some emergency fixes are essential to get you home alive (I once tied a long screw driver across a battery to start the engine and make a VHF call while on a dangerous lee shore). This is totally dangerous (the driver got very hot, with lots of sparks near the battery) but saved a possibly worse situation of ending up smashed against old harry rocks.... The important thing I did was to properly sort things out back at base - not make do....

Such a course of action couldn't be recommended in any publication because of the possibility of someone being injured doing it - and the legal culture of today.. but maybe thats the world we live in, which brings me to politics, tax, cost of motoring.............

Sorry for the war and peace effort (need anything for IBI???)




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[milltech]

Re: Heard this before

You're quite right of course. I did once have an article accepted for MB&Y but then I had to admit there were no photos....

When I hang up my boots, if I still have both the funds and the wit I'd like to try, but for now I'll just complain about everyone else, it's so much easier!

<hr width=100% size=1>John
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.allgadgets.co.uk>http://www.allgadgets.co.uk</A>

 

[Strathglass]

Surprise, surprise

I did get my YM this AFTERNOON and find that they review different topics than their two sister publications. I WAS WRONG.
BUT WHEN I SUBSCRIBED TO THE LAST OF THE THREE PUBLICATIONS I WAS TOLD 'WE WIL LOOK INTO LATE POSTAL DELIVERY'. OF COURSE NOTHING HAPPENED.
That is what I am miffed about.

I actually consider that PBO has improved from my point of viev and has a more practical point of view.

Iain



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[Robin]

What A Quick Response!

In the last paragraph of my previous post, I suggested YM might look at the French Mags for inspiration. Well YW have beaten them to it (and me), because there it is, a big well researched, well presented article on Anchors. And it is lifted straight out of the May 2003 issue of Voiles et Voiliers.

Superbe n'est ce pas?

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[poter]

Re: Evolution

"Have to say I think YM has gone seriously downhill since the departure of Sarah Norbury"

I am afraid I agree and followed Sarah accross to PBO.......simple.

poter

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[jamesjermain]

Diatribe

Paul Gelder, Editor, boat owner; sailed thousands of offshore miles including a leg of Chay's Challenge and 1,300 miles with Robin K-J in Suhali, also a trained journalist and former editor of provincial newspapers
Miles Kendal, Assistant Editor; also sailed thousands of miles including legs of ocean races
Dick Durham, Features Editor, lifetime boat owner; and more knowledgeable about the swatchways of the East Coast than most, also former Star reporter and freelancejournlaist.
Simon Jinks, Technical Editor and boat owner; Yachtmaster Examiner and Instructor who still practices both trades
Toby Hodges, Staff Writer, experience and enthusiastic yachtsman who has the misfortune to live on his own classic motor cruiser
James Jermain, Consultant Editor, done a bit and a piece, including three AZAB, a few Triangles, cruises to Spain, Ireland, France, East Coast etc, usually averages between 3,000 and 5,000 sea miles a year, raced at quarter and half tonner club level, boat owner for a year or two, also a conventionally trained journalist with provincial newspapers.
Producion staff and staff photographers also have a wide range of yachting and boat owning experience as well as being trained and qualified in their professional disciplins.

We may not always write articles you like or admire, but I think we have as broad a sailing and journalisting background as you could wish and rather resent the inplication we know nothing about the subjects on which we write.

I would also, once again, like to remind Scuttlebutters that there is absolutely NO, repeat NO collaboration between editors regarding the contents of their magazines. In the case of ST this would be ridiculous since they are owned by different companies. In the case of YM and PBO all I can say is that the editors are fiercely competitive and jealously guard their future plans.

<hr width=100% size=1>JJ

 

[Twister_Ken]

Eh?

In fact I'm enjoying this YM more than several of the recent past. Libby Purves is always good, the Turks and Caicos thing is good, the guy with the smack holed up in the Alde is good, the bit about the London River that proceeds the Excel stuff is good (but more depth please), I found the RNLI supplement bloody scary. And I haven't got to the end yet.





<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.writeforweb.com/twister1>Let's Twist Again</A>

 

[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

ok, money where mouth is

It is easy to say what is wrong; or just not cutting it, but here is something I am itching to learn about and would like to see in YM, no single page notebook type articles either, I want do' and don’ts. I want examples, I want to know what can go wrong etc.

Specifically, I want to know how and when to deploy a parachute anchor, I own a catamaran which is a different monster to a monohull so I want both, and not just a foot note about cats either, which seems the norm.

When should I deploy warps and how, for instance John Passmore talks about putting Lottie Warren beam to in a storm then bringing her around, why?

When should I use a drogue? How big should it be for my boat? When should I be hoving to? I have tried this and have been unable, so some tips would be nice.

And when are you going to realise that not everyone is in a marina when it comes to boat handling, and some have more than one hull. The magazines are very unfairly biased when it comes to monohulls, yes they outnumber multi-hulls but by god we read your magazine too.

I would also like to know more about all aspects of storm tactics, I feel you are writing far too much for perfect days out, well 20 miles offshore you can start fighting for your life, and how you come through the otherside might be an article you read one afternoon in a magazine that suggested doing such and such when the boat starts behaving in such and such away.

How does that sound?

Ps. I regularly work on -30kv but am not a certificated mains electrician, I work on 3 phase, DC, RF, 115v 400hz single phase and mains, but I would have to get a certified guy on board to do my wiring, I think not.


<hr width=100% size=1>Julian

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.topcatsail.co.uk/movies.html>Dolphin Movie From Top Cat</A>

 

[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

Re: Eh?

Did you read the bit about the boat aground on Brambles, couldn't deploy anchor because they had lost the electrics on board.

Dangerous does not come close!

<hr width=100% size=1>Julian

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.topcatsail.co.uk/movies.html>Dolphin Movie From Top Cat</A>

 

[sailbadthesinner]

Re: Eh?

eh?
since when did electrics loss mean you cannot deploy an anchor
have not got my copy yet

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=red>if guinness is good for you. i must be very very good</font color=red>

 

[vyv_cox]

Perfect illustration of the problem

You found the article on anchoring to be well researched and well presented. Someone else posting up the thread described it as 'shallow'. (or were they in two different magazines, in which case the difference is surprising)

You can't please all of the people all of the time.

Whilst I understand that there must be articles that advise the novice or relatively inexperienced, for ideal balance there should be some that I struggle to understand and hence learn from. There does seem to be a total absence of these in recent years. I recall some of the Michael Richey navigation articles of about 7 years ago that took me days to study. Some of the Nigel Calder pieces of the mid 1990s, occasionally repeated more recently, were similarly testing. It would be pleasant to read the occasional gem like these, preferably from new authors.

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[Twister_Ken]

Stand by

Dear sir,

We will be in touch with you shortly about taking out a subscription to our latest magazine, Heavy Weather Cat Sailing Monthly

Your faithfully,

Albert Ross
Editor

PS loved the dolphin film. How long were they with you?

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.writeforweb.com/twister1>Let's Twist Again</A>

 

[Robin]

Re: Perfect illustration of the problem

Hi Vyv

No there were actually TWO different articles, a 'shallow' one in Yachting Monthly (that was my comment in my first post) and the excellent and well researched article which appeared in Yachting World. The one in Yachting World was a translation of an article done by the French Mag Voiles et Voiliers in May.

What is often annoying is the build up in an earlier issue, you know the kind of thing that says 'coming soon, See and Be Seen, Radar Target Enhancers' and then you get the mag and find a an article which a) is only talking about one (singular) radar enhancer and b) doesn't tell you any more about it than does the manufacturer's advertisements which have been in the magazine for months.



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[Guest]

Re: ok, money where mouth is

"Ps. I regularly work on -30kv but am not a certificated mains electrician, I work on 3 phase, DC, RF, 115v 400hz single phase and mains, but I would have to get a certified guy on board to do my wiring, I think not."

wanna job????

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[jamesjermain]

Re: ok, money where mouth is

Article summary dispatched to Paul Gelder this morning.

<hr width=100% size=1>JJ