Coppercoat

[greeny]

10 years down the road with CC. and very happy with it. Virtually no fouling on the hull at all each year, and my boat has not moved much this last couple of years. The fouling that is there just washes off after a couple of days out on a trip.
Application is extremely important. Mixing well and regularly to keep the copper particles in suspension is important. Abrading with scotchbright did not work for me. Used 100 grit to give it a light sand by hand to expose the copper.
If your application is poor and you have a rough finish, orange peel effect, then any sanding only takes the peaks off and leaves the troughs still covered with epoxy. Thats where the fouling will stick. Make sure the application finish is as as smooth as possible or you will be sanding lots of it off later to get it flat and expose the copper evenly.
I would agree that the first year for me was a bit dodgy and i was unsure that i had made the right choice, but i believe it was just not abraded sufficiently. 10 years ago, scotchbright was the recommendation and that is not enough to get the epoxy coating off the copper particles in my opinion. After the first year I lifted out and sanded with 100. It's been working ever since.

10 years down the road and quids in now. Very happy with the choice.
Atlantic waters Portugal, Spain.
Berthed in Portimao, river estuary, saltwater, not brackish except for when we get big rains. Not often.

p.s.
for those who are not sure whether to take the leap.
why don't you get the local applier to put a few test areas on your hull at next lift out. a few small (6 inch squares) dotted around will test it in your area on your boat. Then you'll know for sure whether its worth spending your money after a year.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

The colour changes over time to a deep green - I do not know the chemistry but this is when it becomes effective. Also you then have to use the boat occasionally and the slime that forms washes off. Simples.

+1. Coppercoat is nether more nor less effective than other antifouls; it's advantage is its long life. And as said above, regular use does help, along with an occasional scrub round the waterline. IT seems to have a deterrent action on the adhesion of growths to the hull, as well as biocidal effects. And as others have said, it takes time to activate; a reaction between the metallic copper and the salt water has to take place that usually results in the coating turning dark green.

 

[EuanMcKenzie]

I have it

Hull was blasted October 16 then dried out over winter. Boat was out for a refit and didn’t launch in 2017. We coated it on a warm day August 2017 and Launched April 2018. Application was a diy job done outdoors but we put lots of effort into making sure we mixed it very well and applied it within overcoating times.

I rubbed it with 600 grit wet and dry prior to launch and it blackened over in 2 weeks. It lives on a mooring in the summer and pontoon berth in winter so is in all year round. We dried it out June this year and the hull was clean barring slime and the bronze rudder pintles which had lost their coating altogether.

I’m convinced application is critical as is exposing the copper at launch. The Gareloch is a fairly high fouling area and my boat is not that highly used. it seems be working well for me so far. I’m not convinced that because you get a yard to do the job their quality control is always spot on as they may be chasing a quick turnaround. It works too well for too many people for it to be simply a good product / bad product debate.

 

[Hydrozoan]

Cuprous oxide is what repels the critters. So if it isn’t green it can’t work. Why it didn’t go green is a mystery but if Ewan can’t figure it no one can.

As you can see from my pictures mine is very green and it definitely works.

Cuprous oxide is red or yellow, not green (and cupric oxide is black). I have given several times here (as a former aquatic chemist, whose research addressed copper and other heavy metals) my opinion on the likely succession of corrosion compounds when copper is exposed to sea (and fresh) water.

The green compound is likely a basic chloride (aka a hydroxy-chloride) - or perhaps a basic carbonate (aka a hydroxy-carbonate) if salinity is low. Cupric oxide might form prior to the basic chloride, but as it is less thermodynamically stable it will maintain a higher dissolved free copper ion level - so I’m not therefore fully convinced that its antifouling property would be less (other things being equal). But of course the green colour does show that the thermodynamically expected reactions are proceeding to completion, and IIRC Coppercoat say that the green compound is physically less stable and so sloughs off.

Quite why RichardS’s copper particles don’t go green except in the splash zone is something of a mystery. This paper for example describes a basic copper chloride (Cu2(OH)3Cl, Paratacamite) as ‘... the main component of the patina formed under complete immersion, on the line of water and in the splash zone’ in a tropical location (abstract only, at https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0010938X04001350).

I don’t know if Richard has more information on the local water quality in which the boat normally resides - e.g. typical salinity and state of water oxygenation, and the presence of any particular local sources of organic pollution. I’m definitely clutching at straws here, but (e.g.) low oxygen might just conceivably explain why the normal corrosion sequence is not followed except in the splash zone, and copper does complex very strongly with organic ligands which could perhaps also affect the corrosion succession. But I suspect that Richard might have thought of such possibilities anyway.

 

[RichardS]

Quite why RichardS’s copper particles don’t go green except in the splash zone is something of a mystery. This paper for example describes a basic copper chloride (Cu2(OH)3Cl, Paratacamite) as ‘... the main component of the patina formed under complete immersion, on the line of water and in the splash zone’ in a tropical location (abstract only, at https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0010938X04001350).

I don’t know if Richard has more information on the local water quality in which the boat normally resides - e.g. typical salinity and state of water oxygenation, and the presence of any particular local sources of organic pollution. I’m definitely clutching at straws here, but (e.g.) low oxygen might just conceivably explain why the normal corrosion sequence is not followed except in the splash zone, and copper does complex very strongly with organic ligands which could perhaps also affect the corrosion succession. But I suspect that Richard might have thought of such possibilities anyway.

You raise some good points but I don't really know the answers. My marina (Kremik) is quite inset from the coast so one would think that it might be relatively warm. However, it is very deep with my finger berth at around 11m, so I don't think it's any warmer than the coastal Adriatic sea temperature in general. There is no river flowing into the marina so I would expect the salinity to be the same as the Adriatic in general.

When I had the boat Coppercoated in the yard, the Manager advised me that it would not work properly in that marina although he couldn't offer any scientific explanation. However, he also said that it would increase the erosion of my saildrive and prop anodes and that certainly hasn't happened.

The coating has been well applied and none has lifted off so I don't think any blame can be attached to the yard and when they sanded it down in May this year there was certainly plenty of copper on the hull, although I suspect that half of it has now gone. I have seen two other boats which have given up with Coppercoat in the yard and have never seen another boat having it applied nor a boat being lifted out which is already Coppercoated.

I'm still undecided about what to do next Spring. I fear that the hull will be completely overgrown by then, but not the Trilux 33 coated saildrives or anodes which currently look fine. The anodes also won't need changing so I could leave the boat in the water until Spring 2021 before hauling out and anti-fouling and try and save some money. However, I wonder how slow she will be if the hull is really bad. I might go down, take her out for a spin, and if it's really bad, see if I can get a last minute lift and antifoul.

The amount of stress and money that Coppercoat has cost me over the last few years is beyond belief.

Richard

 

[Hydrozoan]

You raise some good points but I don't really know the answers. My marina (Kremik) is quite inset from the coast so one would think that it might be relatively warm. However, it is very deep with my finger berth at around 11m, so I don't think it's any warmer than the coastal Adriatic sea temperature in general. There is no river flowing into the marina so I would expect the salinity to be the same as the Adriatic in general.

When I had the boat Coppercoated in the yard, the Manager advised me that it would not work properly in that marina although he couldn't offer any scientific explanation. However, he also said that it would increase the erosion of my saildrive and prop anodes and that certainly hasn't happened. ...

Richard

Thanks - it's an interesting issue. I hadn’t thought about elevated temperature as such, and the paper I cited was for a Cuban archipelago anyway. It’s some years since I looked at available stability diagrams for likely copper solids, but IIRC it seemed fairly clear that the ultimate, thermodynamically stable solid in seawater of typical salinity (say 30-35ppt) and pH (ca. 8.0) would be the basic copper chloride Cu2(OH)3Cl as that paper indicates - a basic carbonate (Malachite or Azurite in crystal form) would not IIRC form preferentially except at pretty low salinity, and they are green too anyway.

An unusually low pH might militate against formation of either the basic chloride or a basic carbonate - but that also seems unlikely, in the absence of any reason to suspect it.

Exposure to elevated levels of sulfide in the water - even perhaps just periodically - might also conceivably make a difference, given the strength of copper/sulfide interaction. I don’t get any impression from you of low oxygen/elevated sulfide conditions, but I suppose they might arise periodically in a deep basin subject to limited flow and occasonally very high algal growth, and might just be worth thinking about? (Sorry if that is way off beam, my not knowing of your local conditions, but I'm still grasping at straws in what seems a very odd situation!)

All the best, whatever you decide.

 

[Elessar]

Cuprous oxide is red or yellow, not green (and cupric oxide is black). I have given several times here (as a former aquatic chemist, whose research addressed copper and other heavy metals) my opinion on the likely succession of corrosion compounds when copper is exposed to sea (and fresh) water.

The green compound is likely a basic chloride (aka a hydroxy-chloride) - or perhaps a basic carbonate (aka a hydroxy-carbonate) if salinity is low. Cupric oxide might form prior to the basic chloride, but as it is less thermodynamically stable it will maintain a higher dissolved free copper ion level - so I’m not therefore fully convinced that its antifouling property would be less (other things being equal). But of course the green colour does show that the thermodynamically expected reactions are proceeding to completion, and IIRC Coppercoat say that the green compound is physically less stable and so sloughs off.

Quite why RichardS’s copper particles don’t go green except in the splash zone is something of a mystery. This paper for example describes a basic copper chloride (Cu2(OH)3Cl, Paratacamite) as ‘... the main component of the patina formed under complete immersion, on the line of water and in the splash zone’ in a tropical location (abstract only, at https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0010938X04001350).

I don’t know if Richard has more information on the local water quality in which the boat normally resides - e.g. typical salinity and state of water oxygenation, and the presence of any particular local sources of organic pollution. I’m definitely clutching at straws here, but (e.g.) low oxygen might just conceivably explain why the normal corrosion sequence is not followed except in the splash zone, and copper does complex very strongly with organic ligands which could perhaps also affect the corrosion succession. But I suspect that Richard might have thought of such possibilities anyway.

Happy to be corrected. Very informative indeed. At least I got the dark green is good bit right (I think?) . I have observed that any areas of light green come off quickly.

 

[greeny]

Let me throw one in for consideration.
A copper coated boat is normally one that doesn't need lift out, prep and anti foul for the next 10 yrs, assuming the copper coat is working.
Most copper coat customers report it works well but there are a few isolated cases where it is clearly not working but reasons for this are not obvious.
It is obviously not in the financial best interests of the appliers for copper coat to work well.
Unless I was actually present at the mixing and application stages I may suspect they were responsible in some way.
I am not making any accusations here, just looking for the genuine reason for failure.

 

[RichardS]

Let me throw one in for consideration.
A copper coated boat is normally one that doesn't need lift out, prep and anti foul for the next 10 yrs, assuming the copper coat is working.
Most copper coat customers report it works well but there are a few isolated cases where it is clearly not working but reasons for this are not obvious.
It is obviously not in the financial best interests of the appliers for copper coat to work well.
Unless I was actually present at the mixing and application stages I may suspect they were responsible in some way.
I am not making any accusations here, just looking for the genuine reason for failure.

Although I was present throughout the entire mixing and application period and everything was done correctly.

Richard

 

[Hydrozoan]

Happy to be corrected. Very informative indeed. At least I got the dark green is good bit right (I think?) . I have observed that any areas of light green come off quickly.

My pleasure - though it’s too much chemistry for many tastes, I admit. Your observation about the shades of green is interesting, though whether they represent different copper corrosion compounds or perhaps just a difference in physical form of the basic copper chloride I do not know. (As I said, I recall Coppercoat’s site describing it as physically unstable and prone to slough off - which process might, I guess, produce as it happened a difference in its apparent colour.)

Having thought more about Richard’s case, I did wonder about suspending (say) short lengths of freshly-abraded copper pipe on a weighted cord over the side, at different depths from the surface splash zone downwards, to try to confirm that they show the same colour variation with depth as on the hull. But that would best be done in summer when any differences in water quality with depth would be most evident - and Richard perhaps thinks it unhelpful, being evidently confident that the distribution of abraded copper on the hull is uniform with depth.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Let me throw one in for consideration.
A copper coated boat is normally one that doesn't need lift out, prep and anti foul for the next 10 yrs, assuming the copper coat is working

This really isn't the case , we found with our other boat we nearly every year for some reason we had to get hauled out . Saildrive seals , zine, propeller grease, the list goes on , for us the advanced is we don't have to do that dirty job of Antifouling , yes I know some enjoy it and it's part of boating , but that fine when you in your 20/30/40 but it wear away quickly as you get older , also many yards now wouldn't let you do the work so the expense is much higher add to that that to day Antifouling is so weak in some case stop working within a few months if you use your boat like we do , copper coat comes up on top .

 

[shaunksb]

if you use your boat like we do , copper coat comes up on top .

That’s very good, but after 50 posts does anyone know

HOW MUCH DOES IT COST TO TREAT A 37 FOOT BOAT?

Answers on a postcard please...

_________________________

 

[sailaboutvic]

That’s very good, but after 50 posts does anyone know

HOW MUCH DOES IT COST TO TREAT A 37 FOOT BOAT?

Answers on a postcard please...

_________________________

If you have it done professionally I am guess that's will run into thousands ,
we doing our as I write , the CC cost us €1.5K the Hual out and In €400 and another € 60 pressure wash on top there the hard standing cost , the rest is out time unless you plain to have it blasted off ,
Looking at it another way we still had to pay tho cost any ways plus new AF , so the extra cost is. The different between the CC and the AF product and the removing of the old stuff .
Look at my posting On the PBO furum , copper coat not again

 

[riojasailer]

That’s very good, but after 50 posts does anyone know

HOW MUCH DOES IT COST TO TREAT A 37 FOOT BOAT?

Answers on a postcard please...

_________________________

Our 37 foot Bene cost £2,000 to coppercoat four years ago.

 

[geem]

Anybody out there have an up to date idea of the cost of professionally applying Coppercoat to a 37 foot sailing yacht

Any recommendations for contractors in the solent area would also be welcome.

Feel free to PM me the ones to avoid.

Thanks

Do you intend to have the bottom sand blasted? Do you intend to put an epoxy barrier coat on before the CC? Do you intend to have the CC burnished with 320grit before launch? This all has a bearing on the cost. In my experience the burnishing with 320grit improved the performance of the CC from the outset. You may need to ensure any price you get includes this or at least clarify if it does or does not. Its quite time consuming to do it to a good standard.

 

[robertj]

If you are going to the Southampton Boat Show visit their stand.

I got the boat copper coated at Mylor in Cornwall this summer and am delighted with the work. They have a shed set up for the work so it is done indoors the cost of other contratractors who build a tempory tent round the boat was well over what I wanted to pay.

what size boat and how much did Mylor charge you sandy?

 

[sailaboutvic]

Our 37 foot Bene cost £2,000 to coppercoat four years ago.

What did you have done ? how much work did you do? £2K was a very good price if you had a yard do it all , in 2013 our 385 just the copper coat cast € 1k

 

[Lucy52]

Recent quote for 31 ft boat.

Grit blast hull £600
Grit blast keel £150
Fill and fair and four coats of epoxy on keel £750
Move boat from blast bay to shed £275
Scrape waterline, sand hull and minor fill and fair £45 per hour
Mask and apply three coats of epoxy £1000 (optional)
Apply four coats of coppercoat £1900
Lift and block patches £275
All ex VAT
Around £6000 inc VAT.

There was something about a "four week package" at £500 which I didn't understand and have't followed up.

I dare say other yards would come out cheaper but would it be apples v's oranges.

Highly rated South coast yard.

It is a BOAT, but at that price I would have to think quite hard. Now if you could guarantee there would be no fouling for say ten years, then that might be different.

I understand that as you get older, getting under the hull and doing it yourself becomes more difficult if not impossible and you would have to weigh up paying the yard every year vs coppercoat.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Recent quote for 31 ft boat.

Grit blast hull £600
Grit blast keel £150
Fill and fair and four coats of epoxy on keel £750
Move boat from blast bay to shed £275
Scrape waterline, sand hull and minor fill and fair £45 per hour
Mask and apply three coats of epoxy £1000 (optional)
Apply four coats of coppercoat £1900
Lift and block patches £275
All ex VAT
Around £6000 inc VAT.

There was something about a "four week package" at £500 which I didn't understand and have't followed up.

I dare say other yards would come out cheaper but would it be apples v's oranges.

Highly rated South coast yard.

It is a BOAT, but at that price I would have to think quite hard. Now if you could guarantee there would be no fouling for say ten years, then that might be different.

I understand that as you get older, getting under the hull and doing it yourself becomes more difficult if not impossible and you would have to weigh up paying the yard every year vs coppercoat.

That a bit high but more realistic then the £2 K posted , we doing our own 42 foot and it's going to cost more then £2k by the time we finish .
The CC it self is £1500

 

[laika]

Highly rated South coast yard.

It's identical enough in content to what I got 18 months ago that I'd be 95% certain I know which yard. I think the "4 week package" covers haul out and haul in, although storage ashore for the proposed duration of the operation seemed to be covered by a separate 4-figure line item. I say "proposed" because a friend had his boat done there and their project management skills seemed to be out of the 1970s British workers' playbook with things overrunning by many months.

My quotes (last year) were in the (roughly) £9-10k inc range for a 12m boat for a complete package of lifting, mast take down, stripping old antifoul, re-epoxying and full anti-osmosis if necessary, coppercoating and relaunch and re-rigging. Check quotes carefully because they may not all be for the same thing, specifically number of coats (epoxy/coppercoat) and method of application. The coppercoating itself only seems to be about a quarter of the overall cost.

The quote I was most happy with content-wise (ie professionally put together, clear line items, options to "worst-case" and 6/7 sprayed coats of coppercoat) was from Deacons who were highly recommended by coppercoat and who have a manager who, in my previous experience, runs the yard professionally (and are conveniently located next to bursledon train station). It was also the most expensive but I trusted it more.

After weighing up a lot of factors I decided to stick to conventional antifouling for now