Continuous Cruising

[Erik C]

Erik C is perhaps being a little harsh, I am a fan of Dutch steel looked at a few myself before we bought the Broom, reality is that brands like Aquanaught and Jetten are gorgeous but they are full displacement and sounds like the broker was just being honest about what you really need. A boat at that speed will roll that is just a fact, others will advise re stabilisers etc etc but there is a reason why marinas on the south coast hardly contain any steel boats, it's horses for courses, if I was planning on lots of inland waterways with a few coastal hops then steel would be a serious consideration

I didn't mean to sound harsh but the fact is that these steel boats are perfect for the cruising grounds TwoHooter has indicated. And if I was going to the Swedish archipelago with hundreds of very rocky islands a steel hull would give me a safe feeling, should some weather come up you could probably hide behind an island somewhere instead of planing at high speed to the nearest port. I assume most cruising will be done during the summer when weather isn't likely to be a big issue anyway. Another thing to consider is the amount of interior space a steel boat has vs a trawler, if you are going to spend long periods of time aboard space becomes important. Dutch boats are also very well isolated with double glazing etc, have central heating and lots of light on the inside, all of which combine to make a comfortable stay on board. And then there is fuel, two big engines use more fuel and I believe those engines don't like to be run at slow speeds for long periods of time. After all is said and done it remains a personal preference but to discard a steel boat because some broker said they are not suitable or safe for cruising is a mistake in my opinion, there are plenty of examples out there that show it is safe and comfortable to cruise on a steel boat.

 

[blueglass]

After all is said and done it remains a personal preference but to discard a steel boat because some broker said they are not suitable or safe for cruising is a mistake in my opinion, there are plenty of examples out there that show it is safe and comfortable to cruise on a steel boat.

With respect, it's not just the opinion of "some broker" but a widely held view and I think most Dutch steel boatbuilders do aim their product at the inland waterway market. There are of course exceptions, but careful choice would be needed IMHO

 

[TwoHooter]

@Erik C and @paul salliss: I decided not to give up on the Dutch steel idea - Another broker who is offering steel boats is putting a package together for us to turn one or other of his stock into what we want by adding stabilisers, fuel polishing, etc. Looking back at the excellent post by longjohnsilver I have to say I am convinced that stabs are a necessity for what we want to do. Broker recommends gyro, not fins, because with generator it gives STAR capability. But only if we run the generator. Going to see the boat he recommends next week.

@blueglass: This thread is hugely beneficial for me, I am really grateful for all the input, and I'll probably keep it going until we find our boat. I'm glad it worked out for you - really encouraging to hear that, and really looking forward to doing it not just thinking about it. The trouble is that in today's market it's no good thinking we can take a stab at it with any old boat and swap for something better when we know more about what we want. It seems excruciatingly difficult to sell boats at the moment and I anticipate that we will get just one shot at this.

Now here's a boat which really does do the job. Reputable designer too.
View attachment 51479
http://www.elburgyachting.nl/sp/s4482en.htm?b=Chuck%20Paine%20alu%20long%20range%20passage%20maker&st=3968&f=ixbaen.htm&h=0
EUROS455k PLUS VAT - and there's the killer - makes the price a nice round £100k over our budget!

 

[TwoHooter]

Can't resist posting a couple of other things.

http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/1997/Bekebrede-Spiegel-Kotter-2804883/Netherlands#.VUsS_o5Vikp
View attachment 51480
Double glazing! I really, really want that but it's hard to find. I am so fed up with condensation on the windows (and the ice-cold drip from the window above my nose at 3:00am on cold nights). Quite a nice boat really. New John Deere engine. No stabs but easy to fit those. Fails the bed test (we want a double bed which you can get into from both sides. Wife fed up with being knelt on when I get in).

http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/2007/Aquanaut-drifter-AK-1150-2776450/France#.VUsT445Viko
View attachment 51481
Double glazing! (Why don't I just buy some double-glazed windows and build a boat round them?)

SDOTYA.... that's enough drivel for one day.

 

[MapisM]

Broker recommends gyro, not fins, because with generator it gives STAR capability.

LOL, same broker who said that Dutch steel boats can't handle bad weather, I suppose?
Zero speed fin stabs have been around even before gyros...

 

[blueglass]

[QUOTEThe trouble is that in today's market it's no good thinking we can take a stab at it with any old boat and swap for something better when we know more about what we want. It seems excruciatingly difficult to sell boats at the moment and I anticipate that we will get just one shot at this.
[/QUOTE]

this was exactly our conviction when setting out and it is still the case now. Gradually "working your way up" is not only extremely costly but, at least for those who are no longer kids, just way too long winded. Life's too short.(literally). Get the biggest/best boat you can afford and adapt it as best you can to overcome the inevitable compromise caveat which every boat comes with.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

The trouble is that in today's market it's no good thinking we can take a stab at it with any old boat and swap for something better when we know more about what we want. It seems excruciatingly difficult to sell boats at the moment and I anticipate that we will get just one shot at this.


this was exactly our conviction when setting out and it is still the case now. Gradually "working your way up" is not only extremely costly but, at least for those who are no longer kids, just way too long winded. Life's too short.(literally). Get the biggest/best boat you can afford and adapt it as best you can to overcome the inevitable compromise caveat which every boat comes with

I agree entirely with that. Before the 2008 economic crash, you could work your way up from a small boat to a large one in increments without losing too much money because in the main, you could sell most secondhand boats fairly easily for close to what you paid for them. Now since the crash, the market is very different; secondhand boats are generally much harder to sell and the seller will probably take a much larger hit on resale so for the average boat owner with limited resources, they don't have the luxury of working their way up to the boat they really want via a number of smaller ones.

So yes, good advice. Take the plunge and buy the boat you think you will really want to keep for many years

 

[MapisM]

So yes, good advice. Take the plunge and buy the boat you think you will really want to keep for many years

Couldn't agree more.
You know you can count on my full support, when you'll want to put that principle in practice and convince S that the SD92 will be the next and ultimate step!

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Couldn't agree more.
You know you can count on my full support, when you'll want to put that principle in practice and convince S that the SD92 will be the next and ultimate step!

How about we go 50/50 on the cost?

 

[MapisM]

I wish I could...
Glad to offer 100% onboard support, though!

 

[TwoHooter]

Back from seeing another boat today, Stevens Vlet, just over 40', exactly the sort of thing I had in mind when I started this thread. Single engine, therefore much more space in the engine room than the twin we saw recently. Very nice in every way, inside and out, beautifully built, huge aft cabin, big saloon, good galley, wet room & shower, laundry, etc, etc. Contemporary interior design with light colours and bags of natural light from big windows, well looked after, good as new actually, nice "feel" to it (but it has been a beautifully sunny day and there ought to be a law against looking at boats on sunny days, one should only be allowed to look at them in cold murky drizzle). We started it up and pirouetted around the marina a bit, it handles very easily with bow and stern thrusters, all good really.
Edit: And of course if we don't feel like coastal cruising when another 10 or 15 annos have been added to domini this boat will live quite happily on the inland waterways. I nearly forgot that aspect of it.
View attachment 51632

But...... it needs stabs and davits and a few other tweaks to be the boat we want, and the range is really quite limited at about 200 miles plus reserves, and the final cost is going to be north of a quarter of a million quids.

Now I know full well that to some of the people who are wasting their time reading this eyewash a quarter of a million is no more than the deposit on their next boat, and when we started this we set a budget and it seemed sort of sensible, but .... did I mention our current boat cost £35k?

I just have this overwhelming feeling that I will be saying not "au revoir" but a very final "goodbye" to the overwhelming majority of those quids. The way the market seems to be going I don't see a long queue of future would-be boat owners lining up behind us ready to give us the QOAMQs back again when the time eventually comes.

OTOH you can't take it with you... never saw a shroud with a pocket in it..... and so on. Hmmm.

Now tomorrow is different. Tomorrow we have been invited to go and drool over a boat we will NEVER be able to afford so we can play all day and not worry about anything. Should be fun.

 

[MapisM]

the range is really quite limited at about 200 miles plus reserves

What!?! I know nothing about that boat/builder, but your pic alone screams displacement boat, unless I'm mistaken?
And is she's a D boat, at that size and with a single screw, I'd expect to have a 200 miles range with the day tank alone!

 

[TwoHooter]

What!?! I know nothing about that boat/builder, but your pic alone screams displacement boat, unless I'm mistaken?
And is she's a D boat, at that size and with a single screw, I'd expect to have a 200 miles range with the day tank alone!

Yes, she is a displacement boat.

• LOA 40'4"
• LWL is not published anywhere that I can find. There is a pronounced rake at the stem and I don't know what the underwater profile of the swim platform is - my guess is that it doesn't contribute, so I have to guess that the LWL is about 36'
• Therefore conventional hull speed = 1.34 X SQRT(36) = 8.04 say 8 knots. However I have been told to assume a hull speed of 6.5 knots. Haven't dug into that difference yet but my instinct is that the lower speed is likely to be correct.
• Broker says that usual operation is at 6.5 knots on 1800 rpm. Engine is Perkins M150Ti and manufacturer's power/fuel consumption graph shows 13 litres/hour at this speed. Assume operation at my theoretical hull speed would increase relative fuel consumption, so stick with 13LPH
• Only one fuel tank, 705L.
• 705/13 = 54.2hrs x 6.5 = 352.3 nautical miles
• Allow 25% for unusable fuel and reserves, so 352.3/1.25 = 282 nautical miles

My original figure was based on a scribbled note where I took the 282 as the total range and knocked reserves off that.

The more I learn about this sort of boat the more I like them so long as they are used for their intended purpose which is to spend most of their time on, shall we say, sheltered waters, with the occasional short passage from one sheltered water to the next. Which may end up being what we do with our next boat. Still thinking about that.

 

[longjohnsilver]

Can't disagree with those calculations, but I'd question whether that's the right engine for the boat? I cannot see any reason for putting a turbo charged unit in a displacement boat, what were the manufacturers thinking? Weight and space are not issues, nor is torque. Seems an odd choice. And very strange that there's only one relatively small fuel tank. And I certainly wouldn't be looking at adding stabs to a boat that's designed for, and is likely to spend 90%+ of its time on inland waters.

If you think it meets your needs then go for it, but I'd have a few pretty major reservations. At the end of the day, almost every boat is a compromise of some sort.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Can't disagree with those calculations, but I'd question whether that's the right engine for the boat? I cannot see any reason for putting a turbo charged unit in a displacement boat, what were the manufacturers thinking? Weight and space are not issues, nor is torque. Seems an odd choice. And very strange that there's only one relatively small fuel tank. And I certainly wouldn't be looking at adding stabs to a boat that's designed for, and is likely to spend 90%+ of its time on inland waters.

I guess its about initial cost and availability of service and spares. I've seen high revving Volvo screamers specced in Dutch D speed boats as well but I assume thats mainly because there are Volvo dealers all over Europe and the engines are competitvely priced. Yes, I agree a low revving Lugger or John Deere engine would be more appropriate but I assume their dealer network is spread much more thinly in Europe and they cost a bit more

 

[MapisM]

I cannot see any reason for putting a turbo charged unit in a displacement boat, what were the manufacturers thinking?

Well, actually the very simple reason is that turboed diesel engines are far more efficient at any given power - hence commonly used also in D boats, commercial ones included.
It's true that the higher rating flavours (lower power/rpm) of each block are normally used for boats where the power to weight ratio doesn't really matter (=D boats), but still turboed nonetheless.

Can't comment on the specific Perkins model the OP mentioned, but fitting a 150hp/2500rpm engine on a boat like that, with a cruise speed of 1800rpm, that sounds just about right imho.
It's the 700L single tank that's disappointing.

 

[TwoHooter]

Afternoon Out, and Turbos

Had a lovely afternoon in the sunshine yesterday, under way (the owners let me drive it!) and anchored in a bay for tea. Really enjoyable. It's a Nordhavn 43.
View attachment 51647

@longjohnsilver, Deleted User, MapisM: The Stevens has a turbo because of regulations. Apparently a turbo makes it easier to meet the emissions standards. The boat we were on yesterday has a Lugger with a turbo - bit of a nuisance really as it makes the engine a little wider where you don't want it. I plucked this from a post by the Northern Lights/Lugger Service Training manager Bob Senter 3 months ago: 'Northern Lights generators are certified for current Tier 3 USEPA regulations but Lugger propulsion engines are not, for many reasons, but primarily the great certification expense. You will be able to buy parts far into the future and you could even buy a tier 2 Lugger for a non-US flagged vessel not operated in EPA waters. Regulations are causing huge upheavals in the propulsion engine business right now.'

The couple who own the boat we were on are a bit like us and we not only learned a lot, we also got a lot of our ideas confirmed. They do what we want to do, they spend a couple of weeks, sometimes a couple of months cruising, then go home leaving the boat wherever they ended up. Depending where they are when cruising they spend as much time at anchor as they do in a berth, and they go to remote places, so marina charges are quite a small part of the bill. They were kind enough to run through costs with us and (phew!) we can definitely afford to do this - a lot of costs are less than we thought. Fuel for example, diesel for last summer cost less than £2,500 including the generator. The boat has tanks for 4,500 litres so they can take on what they need for a season wherever the price is best, run it through the polisher, and forget about it for the rest of the year. Annual costs depend on what needs to be repaired or replaced and whether you suffer depreciation. Until the 2008 crash Nordhavn owners could sell a boat for what it had cost to build and equip because buyers wanted to jump the build queue and new boat prices kept rising. When the queue disappeared depreciation set in. Interestingly the queue for the bigger boats has re-appeared. Another thing they said was that it's pointless buying lots of beds - when you tell family and friends you are getting a boat they all say they will come for a cruising holiday with you but they seldom do. Some owners have ended up ripping out guest accommodation and building one super-large cabin for themselves.

All in all a grand day out. We are really grateful to the owners. Great people.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Re: Afternoon Out, and Turbos

@longjohnsilver, Deleted User, MapisM: The Stevens has a turbo because of regulations. Apparently a turbo makes it easier to meet the emissions standards. The boat we were on yesterday has a Lugger with a turbo - bit of a nuisance really as it makes the engine a little wider where you don't want it. I plucked this from a post by the Northern Lights/Lugger Service Training manager Bob Senter 3 months ago: 'Northern Lights generators are certified for current Tier 3 USEPA regulations but Lugger propulsion engines are not, for many reasons, but primarily the great certification expense. You will be able to buy parts far into the future and you could even buy a tier 2 Lugger for a non-US flagged vessel not operated in EPA waters. Regulations are causing huge upheavals in the propulsion engine business right now.'

Well its certainly true that industrial engine manufacturers are having huge difficulty keeping up with the ever changing emissions regulations, even the large manufacturers like Cat so no surprise if Lugger has given up. Its not actually true to say that an engine needs a turbo to meet certain emissions standards. A turbo is way of extracting more power and torque from an engine but it's the electronic fuel management system that determines how efficiently the fuel is burned and hence whether the engine is capable of meeting emissions standards

 

[MapisM]

Re: Afternoon Out, and Turbos

Apparently a turbo makes it easier to meet the emissions standards.

True, but that's not the reason why diesels were turbo-ed, to start with.
In fact, turbos have been around on diesel engines for longer than the restricting emission regulations, simply because as I said they are more efficient (lower g/kW-hr). Lower emissions are "just" a logical consequence.
Higher power to weight ratio is another big advantage of turbo vs. NA engines, though that isn't really an issue in the boats which are being discussed.
And of course, as Deleted User said, electronic control goes on top of all that - though I don't think electronic tricks can make any NA engine as efficient as a turbo, anyway.

Back to the point, LOL, the 4500 litres of the N43 really shows what I meant with my previous comment on the 700L of that Stevens Vlet thing...

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Re: Afternoon Out, and Turbos

Back to the point, LOL, the 4500 litres of the N43 really shows what I meant with my previous comment on the 700L of that Stevens Vlet thing...

Just to put that into perspective, my 63 foot planing boat 'only' carries 3700 litres of fuel and that is consuming 200 litres per hour at a cruising speed of 20kts. The Nordhavns are specifically designed for long distance bluewater cruising whereas with all due respect, the Stevens is not. As for suitable engines for bluewater displacement speed boats, as Mapism says, a good rule of thumb would be to choose an engine with a low power to weight ratio rather than a high power to weight ratio which is why the Nordhavn has a Lugger rather than a Volvo!