Contessa 32 v Sadler 32 or?

[david_e]

i am considering either of these two boats as a comfortable but quick coastal cruiser with the odd journey to ireland and scotland (in hops) from the south coast.

would anyone happen to know what the key faults of these boats are, as i presume they are likely to be discovered under survey, and also if there is any other boat that might be worth considering, up to about thirty thousand after offer?

 

[30boat]

Westerly Fulmar 32

 

[Jeremy_W]

Seacracker 33. Van de Stadt design often mistaken for the Contessa 32. Handles superbly in heavy weather. Way better than the Fulmar in a blow but less space down below.
Rival 32/34: no idea of prices.

 

[Ohdrat]

both boats were designed by David Sadler, the Contessa being built by the reknowned builder Jeremy Rogers (who has won this years round the island race in the earlier model Contess26 the first Sadler/Rogers collaboration).

Both boats are v seaworthy.. the main difference is in Hull form.. the Contessa has a narrower beam and lower freeboard (low freeboard means it may be wetter but it also easier to board from a dinghy or to recover items and worst case body from over boad). The result is that the Sadler has a higher internal volume. but without sacrificing sea kindly and sailing performance...... too much.. I personally have a leaning toward the Contessa but the Sadler isn't far off the mark either!

 

[david_e]

I am not overly familiar with either but when looking at the boats featured in the classified ads it appears that many of the Contessas have had osmosis treatment, even some of the later 1980+ versions built at the same time as the Sadler 32.

The Contessa also appears to be used more for racing than the Sadler which often appear in cruising trim.

Their are many examples below and just above £30k so you shouldn't have too much trouble finding one.

 

[Guest]

One point is that the Contessa has a masthead, keel-stepped rig. The rig on the Sadler is fractional and deck-stepped. I am told by a Sadler owner that the fractional rig sometimes gives him cause for concern as to how long it wil stay up eg. pumping when going into waves. But it hasn't actually fallen down on his boat, so that is more of an impression, and the Sadler does generally have a good offshore reputation. There are many reports that suggests that the Contessa rig is very strong, and it certainly gives me that impression. Some of the early Contessas did have the shrouds attached to the hull in a flawed manner that could fail, and so if buying one of these this should be corrected (presumably a relatively small job). The Contessa's rig generally looks and feels more heavy duty.

I think the Contessa's cockpit and deck layout is more comfortable - the Sadler's pinched IOR stern gives IMHO a distorted shape on deck towards the back which somehow has been avoided in the Contessa. And the Sadler's decks are harder to walk along (there is an especially vulnerable moment when climbing into the cockpit).

Inside, they are not dissimilar, except it is easier for 2 people to walk past each other inside the Sadler. I should think that the Sadler is faster in lighter winds while the Contessa is faster upwind and/or when the wind gets stronger, but don't have empirical evidence to support that except unscientific observations of sailing in Contessa in the same direction as Sadlers in the Solent. Being a masthead rig, the Contessa has a large spinnaker which works wonders eg. in light winds. The Contessa also has a particularly large genoa compared to the size of main - can't remember what the Sadler has, but would think its spinnaker's smaller because of the fractional rig.

I'm obviously biased towards the Contessa, so you need to get a Sadler owner to provide a counter view!

 

[vyv_cox]

All the Sadler 32s I ever saw were masthead rigged.

The main difference between the Contessa and Sadler 32s is obvious to anyone - the Contessa appears tiny! The Sadler is not a huge boat but is very much more spacious below. The sailing reputation of the Contessa is largely based upon its '79 Fastnet performance, but this possibly gives a false impression. There have recently been articles in the magazines suggesting that the boat does not actually sail as well as rumour has it. The Sadler is also unsinkable, in my view a big plus.

I support what someone else says - also look at a Fulmar 32. In my, and many others' opinion, the best sailing boat that Westerly ever made, and that's saying quite a lot.

 

[Celena]

I think you will find the Sadler 32 is not unsinkable; it comes from the same era as the 25. The 26, 29 and 34 are all unsinkable; from a slightly later era.

 

[vyv_cox]

I stand corrected - the 32 is not unsinkable.

 

[billmacfarlane]

I'm no Westerly fan , I find them a bit dull to sail , but I did a course this month on a Fulmar and was pleasantly surprised. It's got a nice performance through the wind ranges and with totally vice free handling. Not particularly fast , but not slow either. Interior is practical though the heads lack headroom. I've also sailed the Sadler 32 , which is an older design. I found the Sadler more responsive to helm , though going upwind she can be hardmouthed if sail trim isn't careful. I'd have a careful look at both boats before making up my mind.

 

[bedouin]

Both excellent boats - but there are a number of other alternatives. Many of the less well known boats from the 70s and 80s share the same basic design philosophy.

IMHO the Contessa 32, while being a nice boat, is overpriced - partly because of its reputation and partly because it is still actively raced "One Class".

For example the Centurion 32 (as I have) will do everything the Co32 does, just as well - plus it has better build quality, and is typically cheaper. Also Seacracker, Van der Stadt, S&S etc - all good boats.

 

[Guest]

And I stand corrected - the Sadler is masthead.

My other comments about the rig being deck-stepped and not so strong - stand, though. The Sadler for example doesn't have the twin (fore and aft) lower sidestays that seem to help make the Contessa rig very solid. Hence the "pumping" issue on my friend's boat. I think the mast section is smaller on the Sadler and my impression is that for example the diameter of the rigging wires is less, though I haven't measured them. It's possible that the rigging diameter varies on different boats.

The Contessa is a real delight to sail - her only vice is strong weather helm if you get the wrong sail combination up in the wrong wind - that can be controlled with a flattening reef/sail change.

 

[Guest]

And I stand corrected - the Sadler is masthead.

My other comments about the rig being deck-stepped and not so strong - stand, though. The Sadler for example doesn't have the twin (fore and aft) lower sidestays that seem to help make the Contessa rig very solid. Hence the "pumping" issue on my friend's boat. I think the mast section is smaller on the Sadler and my impression is that for example the diameter of the rigging wires is less, though I haven't measured them. It's possible that the rigging diameter varies on different boats.

The Contessa is a real delight to sail - her only vice is strong weather helm if you get the wrong sail combination up in the wrong wind - that can be controlled with a flattening reef/sail change.

As for the Fastnet, it's true that that had a major impact on the Contessa's reputation, and is often cited in support of them. There are dozens of other accounts, though, of it's use in circumnavigations, Willy Kerr's use of his boat for Arctic exploration, or for example the account of different boats experience of the 1987 Channel storm in "Heavy Weather Sailing" to name just a few. Here's a brief description of rounding Cape Horn in one in heavy weather which makes a good read: http://www.co32.org/BOAT_SECTION/CAPE_HORN/dear_mr.htm

I'd be interested to have a look at the articles in the yachting press you mention if you could direct me to them!

I must say I like the Sadler, too, in many ways, it was on my short list of 3/4 classes to buy, but I think that the Contessa has the edge. Can't comment on the Fulmar, never sailed one.

 

[vyv_cox]

I'm not very familiar with the 32 - I have a 34, with a very similar rig. The cause of the panting on the 34 is that the shroud angle is very acute, so it is quite difficult to apply a lateral force to the centre of the mast. On the 34 the mast section is larger than normal to counteract this, although the panting still happens. Can't speak for the 32. Standing rigging on the 32 is 7 mm, except for the babystay, 8 mm.

Most reviews seem to rate the 32 very highly as a sailing boat - "The Sadler 32 evolved from the hugely successful Contessa 32, also designed by David Sadler and built by Jeremy Rogers. The Contessa 32 was a real classic of its time, with elegant lines, low profile and superb heavy weather performance. However, in 1979 David Sadler designed the Sadler 32 to deal with the shortcomings of the Contessa 32, being limited accommodation through low headroom and narrow beam, sluggish light weather performance and rolling downwind. The result was the Sadler 32, which embodied several innovative features and represented an important "milestone" in cruising yacht design" from Mike Lucas website.

 

[doris]

Sigma 33 much maligned

The Sadler and the Contessa are both, IMHO, slow chuggers. The Sigma 33 has a loutish reputation from the early days in the one design fleet but it sails far better than either of the other two, is extremely robust and will always hold it's value. Don't think about the cruising version as this is simply the normal fractional rig with a bit chopped off the top, ie like sailing a standard boat with a permanent reef in.

 

[LeonF]

Fellow sailor at my club bought a Sadler 32 and sailed it single handed from Durban to the Azores. When on a flying visit back he was much impressed with my Sigma 33. He has some experience of boat building also being the owner of a steel Van der Stadt which he has almost finished building. I have no experience of the boats mentioned, but I did look at a Contessa 32 when boat hunting. I loved the lines but found the interior too cramped. Also looked at a Sadler 32 -one of the Slack built models but didn't like the layout- very glossy but it didn't feel solid and secure.The Sigma 33 is one of the boats that survived the Fastnet. I believe she was being sailed by the designer, was knocked flat and broke a window, but lay ahull till the storm subsided and then sailed home.Have a look at the cruising notes on the Sigma 33 website.

L.A.R.Ferguson

 

[Guest]

Mike Lucas is in the business of selling Sadlers, isn't he, so his description of the history may be a little coloured?

He is right that the Sadler 32 has more volume down below than the Contessa. However my impression was that the sleeping quarters, stowage, forecabin etc. are not very different between the two. Galleys vary a lot on the Contessa, many are worse than the Sadler that I know - mine is better. Ditto re the quarter berths. The main difference below I think is in the ability to swing a cat around the saloon of the Sadler.

The Sadler is undoubtedly an excellent boat - with a fine pedigree... However I suspect that the shape of the Sadler 32 was more influenced by considerations of the IOR rating rule than the Contessa was.

Many Contessas have been sailed hard and of course the average Contessa is older than the average Sadler, so often cosmetically the typical Contessa may not be so pretty inside as the average Sadler.

I haven't been aboard one of your 34's, but my reservations about the Sadler 32's decks and cockpit are based around the highly pinched stern of the Sadler - judging from its shape from the outside, I suspect the 34 probably shouldn't suffer from those issues. The Contessa of course has a narrow stern but somehow it works better than on the Sadler 32 (IMHO).

I couldn't say whether the Sadler 32 rolls less downwind than the Contessa - I've heard it said about the Contessa that she does so, but I've also heard it said about the Sadler 32, it's said to be a feature of narrow sterns. I can't say that I've noticed the rolling as being worse than on other types of boats - but doing a scientific comparison is a little difficult, and I rather doubt that anyone has done one.

I think it should be right that the Sadler 32 ought to be faster in lightish winds - but I would be very surprised if the Contessa didn't start to pull away from the Sadler in stronger winds, especially upwind with the Sadler's higher freeboard and waterline profile when heeled. My only direct experience of comparing the two was racing a Sadler to windward tacking backwards and forwards in 12 - 14 knots of wind. In those conditions and on that point of sail the Contessa pulled away from the Sadler bit by bit. It could of course just have been superior sailing skill (modest blush). The Contessa does like going to windward and in a stronger wind (20+ knots) leaves pretty much everything behind when close hauled.

The Contessa is definitely a wet boat, but for cruising that can be overcome by fitting a solid sprayhood.

 

[Jeremy_W]

For the length. Sigmas and Fulmars feel like you've 50% extra space. Against that I've never seen any Sigma where the interior hasn't been trashed by racing crew. To cram in seven berths they have bunks where there should be lockers and you can't change anything or you're out of class and the yacht unsale-able. The Genesis sails are ghastly to roll up. On any Sigma that has been raced the dacron sails are usually completely trashed and only kept out of habit. Against that sailing a Sigma and keeping the yacht moving under sail when most other yachts have given up and are motoring is a lovely feeling. The rig is very adjustable, but at what cost to the head door? Everything on deck is, for a large crew, where it should be but the deck layout's awkward for short-handing. The rudder is also probably too small for comfortable cruising.

Fulmars do everything that Sigmas do, only not as well. They are not as much fun to sail, nor as much hard work, but they don't assume a lot of weight on the rail. Change what you like as they don't have to be returned to One Design state before resale. Accomodation is better because fewer berths are crammed in and luxuries like H&C water are common.

On the traditional side of the argument I've sailed a Seacracker 33 and a couple of Rival 34's. The great strengths are directional stability and the capacity to soak up foul weather. These yachts reallly will look after you. I've been at the helm of a Rival 34 in a brief Force Ten under full main and the sense of "No Fear - the worst thing that can happen is another of the skipper's curries" is fantastic. Seacracker 33 in F8 Bristol Channel, wind against tide - yes, same feeling. "No sea room to heave to or lie ahull. We have to sail through this and we'll make it". But you pay for that in more compact accommodation.

 

[david_e]

Interesting about it being a 'wet' boat, are there any faults that are inherent to Contessa's that you know about?

 

[david_e]

are there any inherent faults with the sadler that you know about, someone has mentioned the 'slack' built boats being not up to it?