Conflicting advice on sails, need a neutral voice

Twister_Ken

Twister_Ken

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Sailmaker 1.

High tech Dacron will do very nicely, keep its shape, last you years. For your sails, cross-cut is perfect. Laminates will self destruct in five years, and go mouldy before then

Sailmaker 2.

Dacron will lose its shape in the first big blow, and although it will last you years, it'll set like a potato sack. What you need is cruising laminates, which will keep their shape and will last longer than you think. And tri-radial is essential.

Does anyone know a sails/sailcloth expert I could talk to, who doesn't have a vested interest in selling me what their loft is good at?
 
No, but don't go to a loft that is good at racing, and ask them to make cruising sails.
Breathe in, breathe out.
 
Twister_Ken said:
Sailmaker 1.

High tech Dacron will do very nicely, keep its shape, last you years. For your sails, cross-cut is perfect. Laminates will self destruct in five years, and go mouldy before then

Sailmaker 2.

Dacron will lose its shape in the first big blow, and although it will last you years, it'll set like a potato sack. What you need is cruising laminates, which will keep their shape and will last longer than you think. And tri-radial is essential.

Does anyone know a sails/sailcloth expert I could talk to, who doesn't have a vested interest in selling me what their loft is good at?
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The only people I have found who do know what they are talking about are sailmakers who do a wide variety of work.

The one I found best was Rob Kemp at www.kempsails.com . He obviously has an interest, but he explained the choices to someone I was with who was wanting something specific. Rob also told him where he could get additional information. All very positive and open. My requests are only simple, a baggy old sail is fine for me, nevertheless he was helpful for me too.

I have no connection with them. Just satisfied user.

Mike
 
I formed a negative opinion of dacron from my windsurfing days where I was a far better windsurfer than I am a sailor. The thing about windsurfing at a high level is you rely very much on feel and I could definitely feel dacron go out of shape very quickly.

So now as a sailor I'm more aligned with sailmaker 2, based on my own experiences. Dacron lasts ages, but wants the point if the shape is ****. (My ideal cloth would be where the shape and the construction will start go at the same time.)

Every sailmaker has their own bias and generally based on what most of their customers are most happy with, so the reality is that both sailmaker 1 and 2 could well be correct from their perspective of the world and the assumptions they may have made about you. When I was last in your situation I actually got them to explain why they were recommending something different from another sailmaker. When it came down to it one of the responses (North) was purely down to "we don't use that type of cloth on a boat as small as yours".

PS. Sailmaker 2 is also correct that if you are going for some kind of aligned laminate then you must go tri-radial.
 
Does it matter? You are sailing an old fashioned boot ...

Your sails are as much use as the navigator - old, worn out, and fit for a 2nd childhood.

Keep the old sails. Just give them a surficant shrinkage wash and switch your engine on when you need to boost your sailing performance.

Cheers,

Nige
 
Ken if you are talking about new sails for the Twister, a good Dacron would be fine IMO. The higher specs are only needed when the sail loads are likely to be very high and in order to avoid stretching out of shape and in Dacron the cloth would otherwise have to be super heavyweight to achieve it and even then probably wouldn't. That needs a combination of largish boat, taller rig, bigger sail area and is not the case with a 28ft Twister. I wouldn't even think about a laminate in this instance and even the Hydranet Dacron with Spectra/Dyneema woven in that we have (and really like) would probably be an overkill.

I know he is a sailmaker but talk to Paul Lees at Crusader. I know he will give you an honest view of all of the options, all of which they can do, design cut and make in house at Poole. Tell him what you want to achieve and what you budget is and ask what he would recommend. He won't sell you something you don't need nor tell you that the cheapest bit of rag will do just because it undercuts the next guy.
 
High density cross-cut dacron

.
Go for Marblehead dacron or the equivalent - much more densely woven than standard dacron, with a lot less resin in the cloth. Result is better handle and much less stretching when it gets old. Costs about 15% more but well worth it. Our sails on a similar boat (Vega) are good as new after 80,000 miles.

Laminates on a cruising boat are a PITA if you ask me. (Which you did, didn't you :D )

:D
 
I strongly recommend Kempsails.They have their own fabric called Ripstop which is composed of Dacron reinforced with a fibre (don't know which but Rob will surely tell you) in a square pattern.My main is already 6 years old and the shape is absolutely perfect.My genoa is also Kemp and it's a biradial.Shape is again very good although I never reef it.I use a gib(kemp) when the wind picks up but I once tried reefing the genoa and it worked rather well.
 
I have just ordered new sails. My boat is slightly newer than a Twister but still definitely a cruiser. I ordered tri-radial cruising laminates from a very knowledgeable and helpful local sailmaker (Westaways).

Several reasons for this choice.

My previous boat was a cruiser-racer with laminate sails which gave a good point of comparison to see how poor is the shape of my current dacron sails. Dacron sails stretch.

Cruising laminates were not that much more expensive and I expect this to be the only set of sails I will buy during my ownership of the boat.

The "look" of the tri-radial will significantly enhance my pleasure when sailing.

The promised life-span is similar to that of dacron.

The only downside is that you have to be more careful with the sails but I am used to that.
 
Another vote for Kemp

As a customer.

When I was looking for new sails ,talking to Rob Kemp was, by far, the most informative discussion I had with any sail maker. Decided on Dacron DP Square main and Genoa. No regrets
 
Twister_Ken said:
Should have said, boat concerned is not my Twister, but a brand new boat with a high aspect main and a fractional skinny genoa, that a close friend is buying, with a view to fast cruising, not racing.
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Big boat, small boat? If small the cost of replacing laminate sails sooner than Dacron will be less of a financial problem?

Assuming a 35ft boat say, I would personally look very seriously at Hydranet Spectra/Dyneema woven into Dacron and maybe triradial cut.

But my original advice still stands. Rather than get a dozen different views from people like me who will have our own favourites, talk to a sailmaker that can offer ALL of the various options and made in house by themselves and so with no personal axe to grind. That is why I suggested talking with Paul Lees at Crusader. Sailcloth makers will be biased towards their own product lists and some, many more than people realise, sailmakers no longer make in house and subcontract it to the far east so who knows whether they are just pushing one type over another.

BTW to illustrate the differences, hot 36ft racer berthed near us has super sexy laminates for racing but has still bought a new suit of Dacron for cruising.
 
Ken its simple. You're talking to a racer when you talk about laminates and to a cruiser when you talk about Dacron ( aka Terylene when we had a chemical industry).

Laminates include ararmid fibres (Kevlar etc) in the makeup which dont stretch much compared to Terylene and dont take up as much of a permanent set. However the multi layer fabric construction does allow damp penetration between layers and the forming of mould.

To the racer, any stretch which slows down the boat makes the sails useless. To the cruiser - "whats stretch"?

Don't believe the likes of Kemp when they say they have their own fabric - I doubt they are big enough to own a weaving mill or to demand that the mill makes only for them. Nor do most of the big sailmakers cut their own sails. But they are all in the business of trying to persuade you that they offer something special.

I'm convinced that my laminate jib makes a difference when racing the boat but I'd have difficulty in persuading myself that it was more than half a knot on a beat. And in any case can your boat take advantage of the performance - no point in fitting a F1 engine into a Mondeo is there?
 
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There is also no point running a Mondeo engine with a spark plug missing - which is exactly what you are doing sailing with stretched dacron sails. The new information on the type of boat reinforces the argument for seriously considering cruising laminate.
 
Twister_Ken said:
Sailmaker 1.
Does anyone know a sails/sailcloth expert I could talk to, who doesn't have a vested interest in selling me what their loft is good at?
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Ken,
I don't think you will have any "neutral" opinion on this. What does it mean? You can ask around more sailmakers if you wish, but I bet you get the same range of answers you have here. I suppose in the end it does not matter too much one way or the other, if you are doing some sort of hybrid sailing (fast cruising?).

FWIIW, we have just bought a Hydranet main from Westaways (who did and EXCELLENT service). Our needs were for durability even with some harsh treatment (Tigger is chartered and used for sailschool). And I am sort of convinced that the high modulus fibres will help with the stretch issue. We got similar advice from a number of sailmakers
 
I've had a cruising laminate genoa for about 5 or 6 years now - 135% overlap on a Sadler 29. Still sets very well, except for the leach which seems to be spoiled by the UV strip, and no sign of self destruction but we do take it down and fold it when we leave the boat. Not sure if I'd have another though. It has suffered from mould but we had it treated and laundered last winter and it came out looking much better. The cloth is stiff to handle and surprisingly heavy (presumably due to its three layer construction). I think in future I'd go for either pure laminate or high tech reinforced Dacron and I wouldn't bother with the UV strip either.
 
galadriel said:
This is a nice 'high tech' Dacron type sail that we had the sails made up for Galadriel. It Dimension Polyant MT square, its basically a Dacron but is reinforced to reduce stretch etc, Kemps told me at SIBS it is exclusive to them, its not, Arun made our sails using the same material.

http://www.dimension-polyant.com/en/Wovens_2_1_1.php#square
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Dimension Polyant are the makers of Hydranet too, which is what we have in triradial cut on both roller genoa and fully battened mainsail see:-
http://www.dimension-polyant.com/en/Hydranet_2_2_1.php
 
Having just ordered a new furling Genoa I would agree with sailmaker 2. There are a lot of people around who offer advice on this subject, especially those who would advise against laminate who's knowledge about these sails is based on hearsay and conversations at the bar rather than real experience.

Having had both Laminates for racing and dacron for cruising (and racing) I'm confident that the modern cruise-lam fabrics are the best of both worlds (with some limitations on how you look after them).
 
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