confirmed - belgians will fine you for having red diesel in your tank

[sailorman]

Duty Free in Belgium

 

[Stork_III]

What's all the fuss about? Belgium has a coastline of about 40 miles, just don't go there.

But also stay out of their 12 mile limit waters, they have stopped boats just sailing up the coast to Holland.

 

[neale]

Does anywhere else in the world (outside the EU) dye its diesel? If so, what do the Belgians propose to do about them?

Pete

My guess is that they wouldn't care as long as the boat is registered outside of the EU as they would have no authority or law under which they could act. So I am thinking, should we all register our boats in Jersey or Guernsey?

 

[Twister_Ken]

Has Belgium actually got a government at the moment? Or is it still being run by uncivil serpents?

 

[Colvic Watson]

With a capacity of 400 litres we will be staying away from Belgium which means staying away from Holland - on two occasions now we've only made it back by port hopping in bad weather, the run from Flushing to Harwich is a hell of a long journey for a family crew.

 

[Appledore]

My guess is that they wouldn't care as long as the boat is registered outside of the EU as they would have no authority or law under which they could act. So I am thinking, should we all register our boats in Jersey or Guernsey?

My boat is registered (Part 1) in Guernsey (where marine diesel is RED). But I live in the UK. Would the Belgians see red over that?

Anyone know what rules the Irish (Southern part) have over UK red diesel? AFAIK no one has mentioned prosecutions when entering Dublin or elsewhere.

 

[Burnham Bob]

Quick update, I have sent the e-mail on to the RYA legal team and my Euro MP Andrew Duff and I have replied to the Belgain official as follows.......

Thank you Mr Dickschen. at least I now know that buying red diesel in the UK, even if I have receipts showing the duty has been paid in the UK will lead to an automatic fine in Belgium.

This does strike me as a little absurd as having paid duty on it to the satisfaction of Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs, I seem to be being fined for the presence of red dye in the fuel, not for evading duty.

I have passed your reply on to the Royal Yachting Association and my Euro MP to inform them that prior to the outcome of the current legal process, Belgium has decided that the UK is infringing EU rules and that Belgium can levy penalties on private inividuals.On a personal note, however, Merry Christmas!

Is it just me or are the Government and the RYA just not doing very much?

 

[Appledore]

"Is it just me or are the Government and the RYA just not doing very much? "

Seems to me that they are both dragging their heels. For Goodness' sake, we are an Island nation, with thousands of miles of coastline. Belgium has, err, not very much of it! I used to think they were our friends and allies.

And another thing, do we really have to rely on France for our air support? I wonder if they will reconsider that agreement now, under the Euro circumstances? (OK, off topic, sorry )

 

[maby]

My guess is that they wouldn't care as long as the boat is registered outside of the EU as they would have no authority or law under which they could act. So I am thinking, should we all register our boats in Jersey or Guernsey?

There was at least one case documented on this forum of the German customs authorities fining an American yacht for having red diesel in its tanks... I suppose it's legally equivalent to one of us flying into Saudi with a bottle of scotch in our luggage and trying to argue that it's ok 'cos it was legal where we bought it...

 

[Nostrodamus]

Vote with your sails... don't go and don't eat their chocolate. Do they make anything else in Belgium?
No doubt all the Euro MP's are not bothered as they don't pay for anything at all. I would love to get a copy of the Belgium MEP's expences. Anyone know if they are published?

 

[Cardo]

...I suppose it's legally equivalent to one of us flying into Saudi with a bottle of scotch in our luggage and trying to argue that it's ok 'cos it was legal where we bought it...

Isn't that what loads of people do when they come to the UK?

 

[sailorman]

Vote with your sails... don't go and don't eat their chocolate. Do they make anything else in Belgium?
No doubt all the Euro MP's are not bothered as they don't pay for anything at all. I would love to get a copy of the Belgium MEP's expences. Anyone know if they are published?

 

[doug748]

Vote with your sails... don't go and don't eat their chocolate. Do they make anything else in Belgium?

Not a lot.

But I, for one, will be leaving my brussels sprouts on Christmas Day.

 

[Nostrodamus]

I just lookd for the MEP' expences. You know those people we apparently vote in and then shaft us with these rules.
They refused to publish them but it is believed some are making over 1 million in 5 years. Apparently there are so many of them on the take it would make the british parliment look like the children of Mother Theressa.

 

[MoodySabre]

Vote with your sails... don't go and don't eat their chocolate.

This is not as easy as you state. From the East coast the nearest foreign direct landfall is Belgium. Ok it is not that difficult to go straight to Holland but by having this threat hanging over we are clouding the decision that might be made of entering a safe harbour in the event of bad weather. Do any of us wish to be having to choose between bashing on in unpleasant conditions or risking a E500 fine? This is threat to our safe and unhindered passage. I'd rather pay more for my fuel and travel without that concern - like many there is no real option of filling a tank with road fuel.

 

[MoodySabre]

If Belgium say this is to comply with EU law then should the identical correspondence be sent to the French and Dutch Embassies also?

 

[jtwebb]

As it would cost more than in a garage, as in France, cost would be a sufficient deterrence. In addition, cost would encourage filling from cans with attendant pollution risks and against most marina rules. Is it the EU that makes the anti pollutions rules?

The simplest way to resolve it will be to make the UK leisure boating diesel white - but it needs to be identifiable as such to deter people putting it in their road vehicles.[/QUOTE]

 

[philip_stevens]

The last time we filled up in Guernsey (StPP), the diesel was the same as road diesel. The only difference in price was that boaters had to fill up directly into the boat fuel tank, and not into cans. This way, it was at a reduced tax rate.

Whether to road or boat, it was "white" diesel.

The same could be done in the UK marina's, with reduced tax on white diesel if put directly into a boats fuel tank. Even then the marina's would rip us off - though not as much as being ripped off by the Belgies.

Then how would the Belgies know if it was full tax paid or reduced tax??

 

[westernman]

following up previous posts, this has now been received from the belgian embassy - no doubts about it, even if you have receipts marked duty paid, the belgians will fine you

Dear Mr Calver,

I apologize for the somewhat belated reply to your last email but I wanted to make sure I had all pertinent information in my possession before coming back to you.

Although I understand the difficult position you and other British cruisers are in, I have to confirm that Belgium will indeed continue to fine pleasure vessels using dyed diesel. EU legislation clearly does not allow the use of dyed diesel for leisure vessels and Member States have to conform to this. It is worth noting that Belgium also used to allow for an exemption for pleasure vessels but put an end to it on the 31st of December 2006 in order to be in conformity with said EU legislation.

Belgian authorities have been in contact both with their British counterparts and with the Commission to explain it had no other choice but to implement EU legislation. Not doing so could be considered as an infringement. The Commission has never berated Belgium for its practice of fining the use of dyed diesel. Quite to the contrary, it is my understanding that the Commission has asked British authorities for explanations pertaining to its continued use of dyed diesel and started an investigation against the UK . Some of the confusion surrounding this question arises from early letters from the Commission which unfortunately contain some inaccurate information. As mentioned in my first email, we are currently waiting for a decision from the Commission and will in the meantime continue to respect and implement the EU legislation on the use of diesel.

Regards,
Serge Dickschen
Counsellor - Political Affairs
Embassy of Belgium
17 Grosvenor Crescent
London SW1X 7EE
020/7470 3727

On a purely practical note, ask him if for the correct procedure for dumping fuel when approaching the Belgium coast and the arrangements for getting a tow into to the nearest fuel pump.

 

[Beadle]

Does this apply just to boats registered in the EU?

Would a US registered vessel who topped up in UK and then sailed to Belgium be fined?

I cannot understand he principle that doing something perfectly legal in one EU state is illegal in another.

Can we make speaking in a Belgian accent illegal - £10k fine