Condor ferry crew to stand trial for death of French fisherman

[sailorman]

I didn't advocate that at all - zero-vis is very rare. A collision at 1/2 knot (to take it to the extreme) would not have been devastating to the Marquises at all. If the Condor were travelling at say 8 knots, then the Marquises would possibly have had time to avoid the collision, and the Marquises would have also been more likely to spot the danger and act appropriately.


As for goods costing more if vessels have to reduce speed in fog I agree, though I'm not sure it would be a dramatic rise - God forbid anything should make us cut down on the availability of cheap disposable imports...

How much does a sunken E class container ship or 2 add to our costs

 

[Uricanejack]

Since you seem to have it all figured out, I will put you on the spot - what do you think would have been a safe speed?

There is no specific speed in knots which is safe; there are just too many variables. Ferries tend to be much more maneuverable than conventional ships. Ferries tend to have propulsion systems capable of going full astern from full ahead very quickly. Even so Ferries astern propulsion tends to be much less efficient than ahead propulsion. An extreme maneuver of this nature from full service speed is still very hard on the ships machinery. Will typically really really upset the Chief Engineer. And freak-out the passengers.

I will give you a rough number.
By reducing the power to approximately 75 of full. The speed reduction will probably be less than 25%. Application of full astern will be quicker and much put much less stress on machinery, and more likely to use with less hesitation.

The best piece of equipment on board a vessel of any kind except perhaps a submarine for navigation or collision avoidance is the Mark One standard issue eyeball. When you cannot see. Regardless of GPS, AIS, ARPA or other Aids to navigation situational awareness is to some extent impaired. To compensate for this a reduction of speed to allow a bit more time to assess the situation is required.
I’m sure many, maybe even most ferry Captains and their Officers will disagree.

 

[Cruiser2B]

There is no specific speed in knots which is safe; there are just too many variables. Ferries tend to be much more maneuverable than conventional ships. Ferries tend to have propulsion systems capable of going full astern from full ahead very quickly. Even so Ferries astern propulsion tends to be much less efficient than ahead propulsion. An extreme maneuver of this nature from full service speed is still very hard on the ships machinery. Will typically really really upset the Chief Engineer. And freak-out the passengers.

I will give you a rough number.
By reducing the power to approximately 75 of full. The speed reduction will probably be less than 25%. Application of full astern will be quicker and much put much less stress on machinery, and more likely to use with less hesitation.

The best piece of equipment on board a vessel of any kind except perhaps a submarine for navigation or collision avoidance is the Mark One standard issue eyeball. When you cannot see. Regardless of GPS, AIS, ARPA or other Aids to navigation situational awareness is to some extent impaired. To compensate for this a reduction of speed to allow a bit more time to assess the situation is required.
I’m sure many, maybe even most ferry Captains and their Officers will disagree.

I was specifically asking the poster what would have been a safe speed for Condor Vitesse at the time the collision occurred.
I wasn't so much concerned with "safe speed" from a machinery standpoint, but I believe the 86m Incat has a top service speed of 40kts, so the 37kts it was travelling at was probably around 75-80% of full. I also believe that it takes about 7 seconds for the reverse buckets to close - but they claim to be able to stop from full-speed in a little more than ship-length.

According to BEAMER the vis was 30m, so from the bridge I reckon they could just make out the pointy end of the bateau, but no farther. With that in mind, assessment of the situation will be by radar.

 

[Cruiser2B]

I didn't advocate that at all - zero-vis is very rare. A collision at 1/2 knot (to take it to the extreme) would not have been devastating to the Marquises at all. If the Condor were travelling at say 8 knots, then the Marquises would possibly have had time to avoid the collision, and the Marquises would have also been more likely to spot the danger and act appropriately.

As for goods costing more if vessels have to reduce speed in fog I agree, though I'm not sure it would be a dramatic rise - God forbid anything should make us cut down on the availability of cheap disposable imports...

Again, the collision occurred in 30m vis, so essentially zero. While 1/2 kt may have been survivable, it is likely below the minimum to maintain steerageway. At 8 kts, Condor would cover the 30m of visible space in about 7 seconds - may have given Marquises time to react, but not likely enough to get out of the way; certainly not enough to fully assess the situation.

Do you care about the price and availability of fresh produce? It's not so much the cost of additional fuel and crew's wages while lying at anchor, but the added spoilage - the cost of which will be borne by the consumer.

 

[PilotWolf]

Well am out of this thread, before I get angry about the utter tosh a lot of people are posting on this here, people who have probably never stepped foot on the bridge of a ship, unqualified, inexperienced and the worrying thing to me is that they seem to believe that they are right.

And they are out there on the water too...

PW

 

[Uricanejack]

I was specifically asking the poster what would have been a safe speed for Condor Vitesse at the time the collision occurred.
I wasn't so much concerned with "safe speed" from a machinery standpoint, but I believe the 86m Incat has a top service speed of 40kts, so the 37kts it was travelling at was probably around 75-80% of full. I also believe that it takes about 7 seconds for the reverse buckets to close - but they claim to be able to stop from full-speed in a little more than ship-length.

According to BEAMER the vis was 30m, so from the bridge I reckon they could just make out the pointy end of the bateau, but no farther. With that in mind, assessment of the situation will be by radar.

I replied under the impression you were asking about my general statement regarding all Ferries, so I gave a general answer.
Specifics, my knowledge and understanding of high speed cats is insufficient to the task. My personal opinion is 37k was way too fast. I readily admit to not having it all figured out.
By my arithmetic 92.5% of 40k.
The speed was only one of the contributing factors.
As for ships stopping completely in Fog or zero vis. it was not even the norm in days before RADAR.
As for cost I will quote a former head of British Rail. "If you think safety is expensive try an accident"

 

[Seven Spades]

There are several interesting points raised here.

1. The economic effects of having to use a different fuel are not an argument that should be considered cost v safety

2. Reducing speed by half will double the time to impact, double the time for reactions, double the time for identification of targets.

3. a reduction of speed will increase the density of ships in a shipping lane.

The problem here was that no one was paying attention and if the vessel had slowed the target would have been visible for longer. It is possible that if the fishing vessel had fitted an AIS transponder an alarm might have gone off assuming that it was not switched off in the bridge.

I think that perhaps a 10knt speed limit should apply in costal waters when it is foggy. It doesn't happen very often and ship owners will have to take the rough with the smooth.

 

[Babylon]

...
2. Reducing speed by half will double the time to impact, double the time for reactions, double the time for identification of targets.

The problem here was that no one was paying attention and if the vessel had slowed the target would have been visible for longer.

I think that perhaps a 10knt speed limit should apply in costal waters when it is foggy.

Quite. We're not talking about shipping lanes or transglobal routes where shipping is skilled at high-speed avoidance of other shipping in all conditions of visibility. This sort of accident involving FERRIES and SMALL CRAFT take place in COASTAL WATERS, which is a small fraction of the distance of an overall channel crossing for example, so not a massive impact on overall journey times, company profits or consumer inconvenience.

 

[Mudisox]

Quite. We're not talking about shipping lanes or transglobal routes where shipping is skilled at high-speed avoidance of other shipping in all conditions of visibility. This sort of accident involving FERRIES and SMALL CRAFT take place in COASTAL WATERS, which is a small fraction of the distance of an overall channel crossing for example, so not a massive impact on overall journey times, company profits or consumer inconvenience.

Somehow this doesn't fill me with confidence when I am travelling across the Channel to/from the Channel Isles. One of the reasons for slowing down in poor visibilility is so that the visual lookouts can hear the fog signals of other vessels.

 

[fisherman]

Again, the collision occurred in 30m vis, so essentially zero. While 1/2 kt may have been survivable, it is likely below the minimum to maintain steerageway. At 8 kts, Condor would cover the 30m of visible space in about 7 seconds - may have given Marquises time to react, but not likely enough to get out of the way; certainly not enough to fully assess the situation.
QUOTE] This is very true: even at a much safer range the first sight of a ship emerging from the fog does not give you much idea of the aspect, you are unable to safely react in getting your vessel moving the right way, it would be a guess. Radar on a small vessel is useful, obviously, but in my case I can be hauling gear, ship's head all over the place, every few minutes I go to look at the screen, with target trail all I get is circles all round the screen. I have to set the ship's head on a bearing, either mark the targets in with a chinagraph pencil, then two minutes later do the same, or try to plot both ends of each trail disregarding the gyrations between to see which way they are going. Even then, I'm working off the Lizard where many ships change course from up channel to the Land's End TSS, so my plot could be useless.

 

[Pye_End]

I think that perhaps a 10knt speed limit should apply in costal waters when it is foggy. It doesn't happen very often and ship owners will have to take the rough with the smooth.

Post 42 is a pertinent read.

Perhaps these argument should then lead you to suggest that all coastal speed limits should be 10kn regardless of visibility? Reminds me a bit of wanting 20 mile an hour speed limits outside schools. However unlike the school speed limit argument a 10kn ship will still sink a small boat.

It must be remembered that collisions, deaths and near misses also take place in perfect visibility, at modest speeds and also offshore. If you play the numbers game, do more accidents happen in fog these days? Small boat collisions in the Channel are very rare when you consider that limited visibility is relatively common, and the amount of ship hours that are made up and down it every day - the speed limit argument is akin to taking a hammer to crack a nut, and one that won't necessarily work. Perhaps focus on other 'accidental death' categories would be considerably more productive and less disruptive- the knock on effect of ships not knowing when they will reach their destinations is huge.

I would also like to pick up on the point about the fishing boat's mistakes - presumably the RYA still teach recreational boaters to head for shallow water if possible as a means of self preservation in poor visibility, and with all likelihood with a heightened awareness for hazards. Not passing judgement on blame, it is always going to be risky fishing in fog, particularly since fishermen are not know for diligent watchkeeping even at the best of times.

 

[Cruiser2B]

I replied under the impression you were asking about my general statement regarding all Ferries, so I gave a general answer.
Specifics, my knowledge and understanding of high speed cats is insufficient to the task. My personal opinion is 37k was way too fast. I readily admit to not having it all figured out.
By my arithmetic 92.5% of 40k.
The speed was only one of the contributing factors.

Sorry, I hadn't realized it was you to whom I had posed the question - lost track with the numerous parallel discussions. Not a criticism directed at you personally, but we very often hear that Vitesse was going too fast, but very few are willing/able to state a maximum safe speed; if one doesn't know what a safe speed is, how can one know that 37 kts isn't it?

Personally, I think 37 kts can be managed safely. With two independent radar systems tuned and operated with a continuous watch, fog lookout posted (or remote camera/microphone) in the "eyes" of the ship, fog signals operating, and due consideration to VTS/expected traffic - there is no compelling argument that 37 kts cannot be managed as safely as 20, or even 10 kts. That said, Vitesse only had one operational radar, no continuous watch of it, no signals and no specific fog lookout - they were unsafe at any speed. If they had run the watch properly, given the single radar available I think 30 kts might be a safe max. with the master set at 3 miles, and the slave at 6 miles offset. I'm not familiar with the area where the accident occurred, but if commercial fishing vessels would have been likely encountered along its path, I think a 'securite' call on VHF might have been in order.

Drifting a bit here, the power/speed relationship is not linear. In a warship, for example, if full power equates to a speed of 30 kts, then 50% of full will give 26 kts. This is not a guess - it's representative of several classes of ship I served in. In a wave-piercing vessel, I expect the power/speed curve to be flatter, but admit that my 75-80% estimate was a wild guess.

 

[jerrytug]

Can you see a little wooden rowing boat on the radars under discussion, and avoid it in good time, at your "safe speed"? Because the guys in the little wooden boat have exactly the same rights to not be mown down and killed as anybody else.
Any doubt about this question means the speed was too fast.

 

[Cruiser2B]

Can you see a little wooden rowing boat on the radars under discussion, and avoid it in good time, at your "safe speed"? Because the guys in the little wooden boat have exactly the same rights to not be mown down and killed as anybody else.
Any doubt about this question means the speed was too fast.

What do you see as a safe speed? Any speed at which Condor could actually maintain a course would be potentially fatal to a wooden row boat. Is your row-boater using a sound signal, or are you leaving it up entirely to the large vessel to see an invisible one? This is a very good example, where on hearing the Condor's signal, the row-boater starts sounding his handheld, frequently. The Condor hearing this, would take all way off then feel its way past the signal at minimum. Once it's well past, it could come back up to speed.

 

[Pye_End]

Why would you take a rowing boat out in the fog into a shipping channel?

Suspect even in good visibility a rowing boat would be hard to make out from the bridge of a ship in anything apart from a flat sea.

He might be in the right - dead right though.

 

[Uricanejack]

Sorry, I hadn't realized it was you to whom I had posed the question - lost track with the numerous parallel discussions. Not a criticism directed at you personally, but we very often hear that Vitesse was going too fast, but very few are willing/able to state a maximum safe speed; if one doesn't know what a safe speed is, how can one know that 37 kts isn't it?

Personally, I think 37 kts can be managed safely. With two independent radar systems tuned and operated with a continuous watch, fog lookout posted (or remote camera/microphone) in the "eyes" of the ship, fog signals operating, and due consideration to VTS/expected traffic - there is no compelling argument that 37 kts cannot be managed as safely as 20, or even 10 kts. That said, Vitesse only had one operational radar, no continuous watch of it, no signals and no specific fog lookout - they were unsafe at any speed. If they had run the watch properly, given the single radar available I think 30 kts might be a safe max. with the master set at 3 miles, and the slave at 6 miles offset. I'm not familiar with the area where the accident occurred, but if commercial fishing vessels would have been likely encountered along its path, I think a 'securite' call on VHF might have been in order.

Drifting a bit here, the power/speed relationship is not linear. In a warship, for example, if full power equates to a speed of 30 kts, then 50% of full will give 26 kts. This is not a guess - it's representative of several classes of ship I served in. In a wave-piercing vessel, I expect the power/speed curve to be flatter, but admit that my 75-80% estimate was a wild guess.

I would agree she was “unsafe at any speed”.
I don’t think anyone can give you a specific numerical speed. The Master and the OOW are required to determine a safe speed based on the prevailing circumstances and conditions. They are the ones who will have to answer the awkward questions after the fact.
If they get there without incident we will never know if it was good luck or good judgement in determining the speed.
If they have an incident, it was not a “safe speed”.

37 knots may be manageable of shore in open water with no traffic and calm seas. Throw in coastal navigation, close proximity to navigational hazards, a slight chop. and the possibility of numerous small vessels. other small returns from flotsam, crab pots, birds, wakes and other innumerable vague targets. I would doubt it.

 

[jerrytug]

Why would you take a rowing boat out in the fog into a shipping channel?

Suspect even in good visibility a rowing boat would be hard to make out from the bridge of a ship in anything apart from a flat sea.

He might be in the right - dead right though.

Yes quite, but he might be drifting, lost, or have abandoned into a tender, in which cases he deserves to get run down?

 

[Cruiser2B]

I don’t think anyone can give you a specific numerical speed.

I gave you specific numbers - of course those are estimates based on what we know and may not reflect the actual circumstances/conditions.

If they have an incident, it was not a “safe speed”.

That is not necessarily true. Incidents can have other causes, other than just speed - poor lookout, and no fog signals for instance.

37 knots may be manageable of shore in open water with no traffic and calm seas. Throw in coastal navigation, close proximity to navigational hazards, a slight chop. and the possibility of numerous small vessels. other small returns from flotsam, crab pots, birds, wakes and other innumerable vague targets. I would doubt it.

Yes we can all read the rule 6 list of variables. I don't see how being coastal vice off-shore should make a difference? And proximity to nav hazards should be taken in context with the manoeuvrability of the vessel. Obviously, if the radar picture is impaired or there are unknown contacts then a reduction in speed would be warranted.

 

[PhillM]

on hearing the Condor's signal, the row-boater starts sounding his handheld, frequently. .

Would a ferry or any ship for that matter hear a hand held fog signal?

Genuine question - I had always assumed that there was little change of a ship hearing let alone having chance to change course if it did

 

[Cruiser2B]

Yes quite, but he might be drifting, lost, or have abandoned into a tender, in which cases he deserves to get run down?

You haven't yet answered my response to you. Notwithstanding the unlikeliness of meeting a wooden row-boat in the middle of the noggin, I accepted the possibility of it. I've come across many small wooden vessels disturbingly far from shore in the Philippines, Indonesia, other areas of the far east, and in the Gulf of Oman. In my home waters, we would often come across kayakers paddling out in the middle of the Strait of Georgia or across the Strait of Juan de Fuca. They do paint (on bog standard commercial kit) but can be lost in sea clutter. That's probably why the staff at the RCC refer to kayaks as 'sea coffins'. I doubt any of them knew the colregs or had a fog signal available. But if I choose to dress in dark clothing and walk down the centre of a lane on a busy motorway on a dark, foggy night, would you blame the driver when I get mowed down?