Compass Watersports

[bedouin]

Re: I\'ve got a bit of a problem with that Kim...

Please don't take these as a criticism - I think you're doing a great job but:

I have been a fairly regular customer of Compass for the last couple of years. I know from personal experience the strengths and weaknesses of their service. I am far from being a totally satisfied customer - but the fact that I still use them shows that I believe that their heart is in the right place, even if their service does leave a lot to be desired.

David's posting is a blatant advertisement that goes well beyond responding to the specific points made further down the list; most of which had already been addressed by yourself. In his posting he portrays his company in the best possible light, which I know to be highly flattering and so misleading.

It is difficult to counter that sort of propaganda without posting specific examples of the problems I have had with Compass - this I am loathed to do because I am aware how easy it is to use a couple of bad experiences to project an image of a 'Rip-off' company which I believe not to be the case.

I believe most regular contributors to this and other forums have a keen sense of fair-play and resent the advantage Compass are taking of their commercial relationship with you. I cannot think of any other example over the last couple of years when such a commercial posting has been allowed to remain on the site.

Since you have allowed David's posting to remain - then you ought to allow people to post their refutations. I would much rather David had posted a much more moderate response to the specific issues, but given the freedom he has been given you should allow the forum regulars to challenge he statements without censoring them - otherwise you lose all claim to being an impartial discussion.

 

[kimhollamby]

Okay, reviewed again

I've further pruned any generic references to price, just to make it absolutely clear this is a right to reply issue. If you see anything in David's statement that isn't factual from your experience, or that which comprises a specific advertisement for a product and I will certainly examine it for correction.

The key points in deciding to remove posts last night was when a genuine forum user was sarcastically accused of being a Compass or ybw.com plant, and an increasing number of inaccuracies in what was being posted. All posts on the original thread and most of those from all bar one user on this thread, remain.

Associate Publisher ybw.com websites kim_hollamby@ipcmedia.com<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by kimhollamby on Thu Jan 24 11:26:20 2002 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[kingfisher]

Cheap isn\'t always a saving

The sign on the boatyard where my baby is hauled out reads:
"the joy of a job well done lasts long after the bitter taste of the bill has gone"

The whole thread shows that there is at least one manufacturer that is smart enough to listen to the clients.

In the USA, there are specialised firms that monitor all the bulletin boards for their clients. Each time a client company is mentioned, they notify them, so that their client gets the chance to respond.

Companies pay a fortune to get feedback from their clients, but most of them immediately get on the defensive once they are the subject on an "uncontrolable" forum.

As long as everybody maintains a basic level of courtoisy, I think that professionals and clients can only get a win-win deal.

Other point: what if the Compass-rep gives a rather biased view of his operation ? So what ? I would not expect any less. It would show him a poor salesman were he to take any other point of view. I'm not blamed for stating that the Obi-Wan is the best-looking, best sailing vessel in the northern hemisphere.

Obi-Wan

 

[HaraldS]

Re: Interesting

Kim,
thanks for the detailed answer, I do understand your dilemma.
In a way, with all the different opinions being aired, subjects like this regulate themselves. This thread certainly did, and I think your censoring wasn't quite warranted in this case.
I also agree that companies should have an opportunity to defend themselves, unfortunately in this case the style chosen wasn't very good and had to provoke some harsher responses.
I have never done business with Compass and when I read David Lewin's original post first, before all the responses started coming in, I thought I'd probably not do business with them given his attitude.
So I think it all fixes itself anyway.

 

[kimhollamby]

Thanks

My point exactly. I wish others in the industry were as active in participating in various of the debates here, as scary as that might seem. And no, that's not an overt plug for Compass! It's no surprise that IPC's marine publications and websites take more heat here in these forums than any other company, but although posts sometimes make uncomfortable reading the input is invaluable and, even when gnashing teeth, we try to treat it as such.

Many months back I received press release after press release from an industry association accusing ybw.com of inaccurate reporting of marina prices in an area. It in fact related to one sentence of one post buried deep in a thread. The press release was issued one month and three days after the inaccurate info was posted, most of the individuals in the association know me on first name terms, but no-one either telephoned,sent a mail or posted a message themselves, which I find a little bit sad. But I do understand, especially in light of the past 24 hours, why people under fire are not prepared to raise their heads above the parapet.


Associate Publisher ybw.com websites kim_hollamby@ipcmedia.com

 

[kimhollamby]

Re: Interesting

Your concerns noted but were you online late last night? The reason that sub-section of the posts disappeared was regarding posts from 2200 onwards. Because of the heirarchical nature of the posts, as previously stated, some valid comments came out with the ones we objected to. I think all of the ground is covered by what is left and so we'll leave it that way.

Associate Publisher ybw.com websites kim_hollamby@ipcmedia.com

 

[kimhollamby]

Unbeatable check

Just checked the site and can only now find two references, both in relation to Compass own-branded products within product descriptions. Certainly nothing on homepages now. If you still see it there, please hit refresh or trash your browser's cache and try again.

Associate Publisher ybw.com websites kim_hollamby@ipcmedia.com

 

[jamesjermain]

Re: Thanks

Kim, I think I am right in saying that a number of organisations and companies have a policy of not responding to critisism posted on bulletin boards. There reasons are:
It often only incites more adverse comment (as David has found out)
Ill informed critisism is often hard to refute and best left to fade away.
Monitoring bulletin boards costs huge amounts of time and, therefore, money (as you know)
Replying also wastes valuable staff time which could be better devoted to providing a better service.

JJ

 

[HaraldS]

Re: Interesting

No, haven't been online after 2200 your time, so I presume you must have had some very good reasons. Kind of curious how bad it got, but I'll probably never know.
Anyway, it is clear you are working hard and late for this board, and that is much appreciated.

 

[pvb]

An old lady once said to me....

An old lady once said to me....

About 30 years ago, I met an old Polish lady, who also just happened to be a millionairess. I vividly remember her telling me “I’m not rich enough to buy cheap goods, my dear”. But she also said “Never pay more than you have to for good quality”.

Last weekend, I started the thread “Unbeatable prices?” on this forum, objecting to the fact that the ybw.com Marine Store was claiming unbeatable prices, when this was untrue. Kim Hollamby was quick to pick up on this (most impressively, on a Sunday) and rapidly changed the wording to read “amazing prices”. There may be some element of tongue-in-cheek marketing-speak here, because in reality many of the prices are amazingly high.

I was surprised that ybw.com had decided to enter the online chandlery business again after the last fiasco, and especially surprised that ybw.com had chosen a supplier whose prices are less than competitive in many cases. Apart from that, I have no personal gripe with Compass. Indeed, I think their new website is a fine effort, even though it doesn’t yet meet the promises made in their catalogue.

Now that David Lewin has entered the discussion, there are a few points arising from his posting. I’m sure we all believe that he works very hard, but few of us will have much sympathy with that because we all work very hard too - to be able to afford to buy, maintain and improve our boats. For that reason, many of us are careful to check that the prices we pay are competitive - not necessarily the lowest, but not excessively high bearing in mind the level of advice/service required. I don’t think many of us would spend half a day trying to save £3, as he suggested, and this is probably quite insulting to many potential customers.

Price shopping is more likely to involve higher-priced items - say over £100 - and probably recognised brands rather than unquantifiable “own brand” goods, which can be of dubious value. Many of these higher-priced items are electronic. Forgive me, but I don’t understand why Mr Lewin says that electronic prices are “political”. After all, he’s the one who claimed that “we set our prices to be low but fair”.

Take a very quick look around, especially at the advertisers on the ybw.com Shooping Quay, and you’ll find that it’s easy to beat ybw.com Marine Store pricing by at least £10 to £30 on loads and loads of products. In a few cases, Marine Store prices are obscenely high - around 50% HIGHER than competitors! - and I think this is likely to be seen by readers as pure greed, or as IPC biting the hand that feeds them.

With this in mind, I wonder whether Kim and his team might be able to negotiate some additional discounts for ybw.com Marine Store shoppers? And, although I applaud the rapid response to the various concerns raised in the last week, perhaps they should also reconsider the claims “Permanent Low Price Guarantee” (it isn’t - see the ybw.com Marine Store terms and conditions) and “Remember: Compass brings you the best quality at the best price!” (quite untrue).

 

[david_e]

I enjoy your brochure David, keep working at it. It gives me the ammo I need to beat my local chandler down in price, they nearly always match it!

 

[milltech]

Re: £3

You're quite right, and David is wrong. People don't spend all day trying to save £3, they spend all day trying to save 50p!

Everyone who has worked an accessory shop at the Boat Show knows this is true. Of course we all have wonderful clients who come and bargain and take away a deal, the deal maybe £2 more or £2 less than a rival, but for every one of them there's at least two more who walk the 1st floor all day in search of a mythical deal.

There are a VAST number of people who come to a boat show, spend £11 to get in, and then take most of the day price a Nasa Clipper Sounder.. I'll go further, there are lots who come twice, once to check all the prices, and once on the last day in hope of a deal. I had one this year who was surprised a GPS76 had gone up by £20, but I had to explain to him his first visit was December stock, his second visit was post price rise and he'd missed the deal. "If only you'd told me...."

It's true, IT REALLY IS TRUE!

Boat Junkie

 

[milltech]

Re: Thanks

Policy is 100% good. Be kind and helpful to your clients, especially those with problems, but do not go into print about it.

I did it once.

Boat Junkie

 

[Bergman]

Re: And so have I

Never dealt with Compass so no opinion of them as a company.

But

Several other companies have been subject to criticism on these boards without any such rigorous defence from moderator.

If MD of a company posts to tell us how good his company is it cannot help but be an advertortial, and as such got everything it deserved.

 

[kimhollamby]

defending right to reply

Not defending anything except the right to reply. No other company has dared to defend itself before, at least in undisguised fashion. Quid pro quo.

Associate Publisher ybw.com websites kim_hollamby@ipcmedia.com

 

[pvb]

And to think...

...that you were partly to blame for the fiasco I referred to! How are the sales of "Century" gear going??

 

[Bergman]

Re: defending right to reply

OK

But does that mean that no postings have been pulled for being "advertorial"?

 

[kimhollamby]

Re: defending right to reply

Advertorial = paid-for space presented in editorial style but clearly labelled an advertisement.

Advertisement = usually paid-for space all the advertisers own work. Exception to payment rule...when they suddenly appear on Scuttlebutt at 6.00am UK time on a Sunday morning!

We've certainly scraped off any blatant advertisement-style postings that arrive with no apparent connection to anything that has gone before. And I admit I was slow on the uptake when it came to modifying the Compass offering (which in fact we suspected was coming and did arrive at a civilised hour of a working day with no attempt to disguise its origin) in order to remove the price plugs and sales pitch element which I know is so inflamatory here. It would have been more appropriate for the post to appear alongside the original thread, something that is difficult for us to fix retrospectively. But I do still contend that commercial companies should, if they so choose, have the right to reply - in doing so I think it is inevitable that they will speak proudly from a company perspective and the result will of course be flavoured accordingly. Such is the price of trying to completely balance the debate perhaps?

Associate Publisher ybw.com websites kim_hollamby@ipcmedia.com

 

[tcm]

Re: reply etc

Not inflaming it any more...

I think you've hit the nail on the head. The right to reply isn't an issue. I've debated this issue hard with/at you - but that was *within* the debate. Not separated out, as Compass have done, and as a result, haven't really "replied" to the complaint, imho.

Compare and contrast your own direct replies to book etc probs- all done by you within in the thread, sorry, glitch, will try harder etc. That's using a right to reply, no problem at all at all. Same with er that MDL chap and with er (ooh yes!) the Navigator Insurance chap, same "links" with ybe too, quite quite different approach to reply.

Cd've cut pasted and emailed back d's text, saying sorry mate, "reply" is "within the debate i.e. with the thread, not a sparkly new thread, plop in a "gosh, some people eh compaining eh?" and then call it a "right to reply". Seemed much moe like "opening a second front" attracting supporters, showing off with prices, all a country mile from your own and Navig. replies, right of which no prob.

Anyway. Toldyer it should have been pulled. Didn't realise that it was such good advice - wd've saved you a load of work!!

 

[Guest]

Observations

In a pissing contest everybody gets wet.
The MD of COMPASS has done himself and his company a disservice with his post..
Nobody is remotely interested in the hours he has done because he has put them in to further his own and that of his companies ends. His comments on pricing show a lack of understanding of the majority of boating people. Compass like most companies will have a spread of customers with good and bad experiences.
I find surprising and disappointing the attitude of IPC in this thread.
Would I buy from Compass? Only if they had something that my local chandler could not or would supply at a reasonable price. I suspect that I am not alone in this.
I think the whole thread should have been pulled.

Pete