Colregs revisited

Re: Colregs punchup ensues

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Quite what happens when two vessels "not under command" are on a collision course, I'm not quite clear on.

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I think that time-honoured pre-IRPCS rules dictate that in these circumstances an almighty BANG is what happens.
 
Re: 9b

ok, here we are. Agreed forget about constrained by draught, irrlevant. But nonetheless a bit odd :

9 (b) A vessel of less than 20 metres in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway


so for starters, the sailing vessel shall not impeded - and in the wording above - regardles of it's size! which seems a bit odd: the 80m square rigger "shall not impede" if it's sailing. But if it isn't sailing then aha - it's not caught by 9b. So with the motor on it can behave in a narrow channel as would a ferry. Or that what it seems to say?

Second - as you say - it *doesn't* say how long the vessel must be that can't be impeded. Or is this just "loose" - depending on how it's read it *might* seem that the vessel not to be impeded is over 20 metres. Certainly over 20metres is the break point for (frinstance) the small boat channel in portsmouth - ch11 and QMH is obligatory if over 20metres, otherwise small boat channel....

More correctly, as per the wording, it's one that can safely navigate only in the channel that mustn't be impeded. This reduces the scope significantly - dinghies in a race across the Hamble must not impeded those restricted to the fairway. But it's fine if they are a 21metre speeboat - they aren't covered by the "shall not impede" - so they can impede anyone, as far as 9b is concerned.

Either way...as far as this wording is concerned people keeping clear of the sailing boats in a narrow channel actually have it precisley the wrong way around: any vessel under 20metres - or a sailing vessel - shall not impede a vessel that can safely navigate only in the channel. No mention of the fact that the sailing vessel might also be restricted.

Which means for instance that a (say) 50metre boat sailing in a narrow channeel shall not impede a 30foot powerboat which (reasonably) considers itself restricted to the channel to navigate safely. Hm

And, a 23m powerboat (not being under 20metres) doesn't have to bother about not impeding. It can impede others (with exceptions given elsewhere etc etc) and mustn't be impeded. It can most certinaly 5-hoot a sailing boat tacking infront, and any other vessel under 20metres - and regardless of whether they are or also can only navigate safely etc


Hm.
 
Crikey

That'll teach me not to post a colregs question and then go to work all day. Just trawled through that lot. To clarify a couple of points, ours was the only boat racing, the other boat was not. Our yacht was heading upstream and very much on the left hand side of the navigable channel which I guess is about 1/4 mile wide at that point. We were in a tidal river.
My original (limited) thinking was that there was a conflict of rules as implied by Snowleopard and I was not sure which would take precedence although I agree entirely with the having a plan b option which we did have but didn't want to use - we were racing after all /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

The situation was resolved in a manner that will please tcm - I hollered Starboard and the other yacht altered course - to be honest I don't think they knew we were there up to that point, no more than 50 yards away. Gotta say this was the first time I've shouted at another yacht and I found it quite satisfying - must do it again sometime soon.
 
Re: Crikey

"The situation was resolved in a manner that will please tcm - I hollered Starboard and the other yacht altered course - to be honest I don't think they knew we were there up to that point, no more than 50 yards away. Gotta say this was the first time I've shouted at another yacht and I found it quite satisfying - must do it again sometime soon. "

Ah! Please come and shout at our yacht.... we so enjoy shouting back " Bollox" in unison!
 
More on 9b

According to the wording of the rule the " .. vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway" could equally be a sailing vessel, of any size, couldn't it?

If that's the case, then for example a fin keeler sailing along a narrow channel could expect not to be "impeded" by other sailing boats or by motor boats under 20m.

Tony S
 
Re: More on 9b

That might be Ok if following the deap channel, which might be on the left side of river, but I dont think it means that it can zig zag about all over the place like a boat posessed.
 
Re: More on 9b

On the basis that I am not exactly "up to date" on my colregs, and I was the non racing boat I would probably wonder why the other fella was heading towards me and getting all excited and would respond verbally in colourful "anglo saxon" as neccesary - However I am glad that I have read this thread as I now have another contingency plan.........in the event of a collision I will board the other boat armed with a cutlass, slaughter the crew and scuttle the offending vessel.

No witnessess has always seemed to work quite well /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
 
Re: More on 9b

What's that little pome, attributed to Eric Hiscock....?

"Here lies the bones of Michael O'Day,
Who died defending his right of way.
He was right, dead right, as he sailed along,
But he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong."

I'd rather not have the paperwork to do.......

Crunch3.jpg
 
Re: More on 9b

Well at least the other boat had the sense to adjust his angle of impact.........

I want a bowsprit for Xmas /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
As I see it you were basically 2 vessels approaching "bow to bow" which means you should have both altered to staboard. As the vessel approaching you was already on the starboard side of the channel, his proximity to the edge of the channel was likely to make him a vessel "restricted in his ability to manoeuvre". On that basis the requirement was for you to alter to starboard and get into the part of the channel you should have been in to start with. The fact you were racing was irrelevant in respect to Colregs.

QED?
 
There really does need to be a big campain by HM's and Coast guards to stop this mainly raggy inspired foolery. I can think of three incidents where sailing dinghys and raggies have seriously endangered life by there insisance on right of way when, even to save lives was imposible.

1/ tugged out of Falmouth marina into open water. Limited manuverability on on engine. Stationary yacht sudenly decides to cross my bows and demands right of way. awfull bad manners at the best of times, in this case dangerous for one party or the other.

Same situation in Salcolmbe. Kids in dinghys demanding right of way and very miffed when they did not get it.

The one that took the biscuit was, crossing Lyme bay maybe five miles from land, fishing for mackeral. One engine stopped to keep speed down to 2 knots. Watches rag stick thingy come up from behind for an hour or two. Whats your course he shouts from about twenty foot away. I points to front of boat and says, eerr! that way. He swerves to go round my stern. Then changes mind and swerves back again. Next he give his engine, (been running all the time) full gun and just misses my bows. Meanwhile we sat on the back of the boat fishing. Boat going in perfect straight line on auto. Two knots. Totally bemused. There needs to be some serious training to dispell the miths.
 
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his proximity to the edge of the channel was likely to make him a vessel "restricted in his ability to manoeuvre". QED?

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I sometimes wonder whether anyone actually reads Colregs in full, and in particular whether anyone reads the definitions.

Rule 3(g): The term "vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre" means a vessel which from the nature of her work is restricted in her ability to manoeuvre as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel.

The fact that the other boat's manoeuvrability was constrained by the side of the channel cannot make her "restricted in her ability to manoeuvre" unless she was carrying out some function such as one of the examples quoted in the rule. And, incidentally, as a sailing vessel she could not be "constrained by draft"; Rule 3(h) limits such vessels to power-driven.
 
True.

The most relevant rules in the context of the situation are 9(a) and 9(d) which (summarising) require boats to keep to the starboard side of a narrow channel/fairway, and not to cross the channel if by doing so they would impede another vessel which can only safely navigate in the fairway/channel.
 
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awfull bad manners at the best of times

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Nicely put /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Was out with my mate on his CI 22 (thats a mobo /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif) last summer, just for a lap around the bay at 5/6 knots - (his second season - pretty competent, but not always confident). I was down below, and saw out of the window that a yacht under sail was closing in on us from the starboard side and we were downwind. A quick mental calculation on my part said that we would probably end up where he wanted to be (IF neither of us changed course).

I came out of the cabin and saw that my mate was aware of the yacht and was maintaining his course. As the Yacht came closer we could see that she had a few crew aboard and that they had a view of us........and my guesstimate was proving right........ which my mate was starting to realise.

I think that if I had not been there that my mate would have stopped to let the other boat pass his bow.............but when he looked to me for confirmation I was in the cockpit and clearly visible to the yacht crew as I shook my head and indicated with my arm just to carry on as we were....lit up another fag and turned to admire the yacht in full sail and nodded and gave a half wave in acknowledgement of to the crew (although the helmsman was pretty much hidden).

I have no idea whether technically we should have given way / stopped / or altered course, but "I" did not on the basis that the yacht was the faster boat, Iknew it was as manouverable as us, I was clearly maintaining a steady course and he was aware of us and my intentions to continue to do so were quite clear plus more importantly I did not KNOW what he was going to do, but figured he would more likely slip behind us as this would have been the easiest thing to do, with a fractional course adjustment.

In the event I think he may have tried to cross our bows, but found that he didn't have the speed and ended up sailing along side of us, although gradually drifting down onto us (much to mate's growing consternation- as the yacht was quite impressive in full tilt).

I suppose we could have speeded up or stopped (or even gone around him in circles at 17 knots /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif), but instead they got another half wave from me.............and my mate got the same urging to maintain course this time with a clearly visible (and my best!) nonchalant Gallic style shrug.

The yacht gybed and headed back off where he had come from.

I didn't think was rude on our part - as I explained to my mate he was only out for a trip round the bay like us and in another 5/10 minutes he would have had to change course anyway as he would have hit the beach and that it had been the more sensibile thing for him to do was slip behind us, which if we had done at the last minute would have caused at least confusion or if we had done this earlier may have required us to make a large course correction, especially if the Yacht tried to "shave" the room we had left him. Or the wind changed.

I also told my mate that I had been unconcerned because "it wasn't my boat" and we were close enough ashore to swim anyway /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
I suspect that you are posting with tongue firmly in cheek, but will take the bait anyway!

It seems to me, if I understood your description of the situation correctly, that it would have been as easy for you as for him to make a minor course change to Starboard, or slowed down, to slip behind his stern, as for him to do the same.

As he was, if I have understood your situation correctly, the stand on boat, the problem is that he might follow his obligations (as he did) and stand on. It might be easy for him to alter course to port to pass behind your stern, but if you simultaneously did what you were supposed to and slowed down, then you would be on a new collision course. You can end up with one of those situations like where two people passing each other in the street step aside simultaneously and get in each others way.

He correctly stood on, and was forced to make what may have been an inconvenient gybe. Wouldn't it have been easier and more sensible for you to make a minor change of course/speed as required to, and avoided causing him at best an unnecessary gybe, and risking worse?
 
hlb, I agree, as I mentioned in an earlier post. Sailing yachtsmen get it in their heads that "power gives way to sail", without understanding that (a) there are so many exceptions to this that most of the time it is overriden by some other rule, and (b) even if the sailing boat is the stand on vessel, being stand on vessel implies responsibilities too. Namely to maintain course and speed, and if a close quarter's situation arises anyway, to take action to avoid collision.

It is all too common to see sailing boats tacking onto a collision course with another boat at the last moment - all right as a racing tactic, but against the IRPCS.
 
nice response simon. Is david Jersey for real? He goes out as a steadying hand to help someone with thir boat but has "no idea" of basic colregs! Sheesh! If the yacht was overtaking, they should "keep clear". If not, the mobo shd be able to move a little as you describe.
 
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