colregs again.. tacking in front of a mobo

No, no, no!

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Wife and I were heading South to enter the gap in the middle of which was a fishing boat about the same size as us coming the other way. We were on a broad reach in about 20 knots, gusting a bit higher so all sail up. As we approached into the gap, with no signs on the water because of the tidal turbulence in there, the wind rose to 40+ knots in about that many seconds and changed direction as it was deflected off the Cape. We were heavily over pressed and had two options - luff up into the path of the fishing boat causing it to take evasive action and possibly put it at risk through collision with us or other event, or for us to crash gybe away and keep our misfortune to ourselves. And that is what we did, the gybe demolished our mainsheet car and took the end stop clean off the traveller but we managed to bring the boat up far enough and quickly enough into the wind and over on its ear on the other gybe without damaging the standing rigging (mainly because we could use the steep following sea to broach us around once the boom started swinging

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You're all missing the point of this post. John is using the anecdote to illustrate the point that a vessel is not entitled to take action which would create an immediate risk of collision with another vessel (the second being a vessel which would be the 'give way' vessel as a result of that action), or force it to take extreme evasive action. Rather than head up and endanger the fishing vessel, or force it to take evasive action, he gybed - at the cost of some damage to his yacht.

For the purpose of his illustration, it matters not whether the channel was narrow or the fishing vessel actually fishing. The only relevant information (which I agree was implied rather than expressed) is that the fishing vessel would have been 'give way' if John had turned into its path.

John - excuse me for jumping in to clarify your post.

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://aflcharters.co.uk>Dream Dancer</A>
 
Re: No, no, no!

oh dear teh problems created when one agrees with the principle but not necessarily the anicidote used to illustrate it..../forums/images/icons/smile.gif

however I think (???) this general point is accepted by most posting here and the issue emerging is the extent to which each party should take what action to avoid the prediciment by either (1) not even being on the same ocean (I exagerate for clarity) (2) understanding what is driving the actions of any vessel that could possibly end up in a possibly collision situation with you and (3) understanding 2 above and taking, or being ready to take action.

You will note that Jimi assumes that all yachts will suffer rudder failure, Stingo that all masts will fall down and others on here that the skipper is probably 3 sheets to the wind!

<hr width=100% size=1>madesco madidum ..../forums/images/icons/smile.gif
 
Re: Please explain??

Could someone please post where Bedouin Sails? What type of Boat, Length, Colour and Name, so I can be damned certain if I see him ..............I keep well clear!!!

Nothing on Bio, Me things you protest too much????

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Re: Please explain??

All I'm doing is quoting Colregs - if you don't like it then take up another sport.

The best way to identify a sailng boat under sail is by a big stick poking out of the hull with a couple of white pieces of material attached.

Whenever you see such a vessel you should indeed keep well clear.

Al least one MoBo er has at last realised their obligations under Colregs. /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

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Re: Please explain??

But I didn't realise you were specifically named in the col regs/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif
But since you've been quoting col regs, maybe you could explain why rule 2(a) and rule 5 aren't applicable to sailing vessels

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Re: No, no, no!

No problem at all Observor you see it exactly as I meant it.

To correct a comment made by others - I did not say that we broached into the path of the fishing boat or broach at all apart from during the gybe we allowed the boat to round up on the face of the waves to get us around quicker, I referred to that as a "broach". Before gybing we were forced to round up towards the fishing boat to maintain control - I guess that would in fact be to avoid broaching. It is easy to say you would just let the sheets fly, but it was that we were on a broad reach (very) with the boom already out to the inner shrouds in a 12 tonne yacht, and not in some glorified dinghy.

I thought it was clear from my post that we got caught out quite unexpectedly with the sudden increase in wind to over 40 knots (and in an area, although with a reputation, we know well) - but as Observor saw I meant, that did not in my opinion give us the right to transfer danger to another vessel for the sake of easing our own.

Anyway, I am now off for a couple of weeks to work with some power boats around your side of the world. Out of that another comment is that those boats are powerful low wake vessels and operate at harbour speeds of 35 - 40 knots but can crash stop within 5 boat lengths from that (any standing passengers will likely fall to the deck). You will find that many bigger commercial power boats cannot crash stop very quickly at all, even from very much slower speeds - they may have to take the throttles back to neutral, allow revs to drop and then hit reverse, otherwise they run the risk of stalling the engines. So despite any beliefs in the overwhelming rights of sail over power my advice is to stay out of their way. Whether you are right or not will make no difference to how wet you get should you get yourself run down. Should it be a fast powerful vessel and is capable of stopping very quickly, that stop may result in injuries to those on board.

If this thread is still going when I get back (yikes /forums/images/icons/crazy.gif) I will let you know how many sail boats decide they would like to sail in front of us - I suspect there will be none.

John

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Re: Please explain??

"Whenever you see such a vessel (Sail Power) you (MOBO) should indeed keep well clear."

"All I am doing is quoting ColRegs"

There you go then, EVERY situation that COULD POSSIBLY arise, we now know exactly what to do! Brilliant!

Me thinks you miss the point!

By, Paul Plant, Southampton (every weekend), Big White 12+ Tonne Sealine F43, "Damn the Expense". Who, where and what are your details/experience again? Excuse me if incorrect but memories of H1 come flooding back??



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Re: Please explain??

The only major exception to the rule is the overtaking rule. I can't remember the last time I overtook a Sealine F43. Whoever I can assure that whenever I overtake MotorBoats I fully comply with my obligations (as I do whenever I overtake).

Who or what is H1?

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Re: Please explain??

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

The best way to identify a sailng boat under sail is by a big stick poking out of the hull with a couple of white pieces of material attached.

Whenever you see such a vessel you should indeed keep well clear.

<hr></blockquote>

I know you mean this statement to be qualified by "if it is proceeding under sail alone" but better to actually state it, methinks.

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://aflcharters.co.uk>Dream Dancer</A>
 
Re: Please explain??

Me thinks you need to go and re-read the rules, ALL of them!!!/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif

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Re: Please explain??

Yes - but the trouble is that if you explicitly state all possible exceptions then it becomes impossible to post anything at all. I did day "under sail" but I suppose I should have added that no motoring cone was visible.

The Colregs definition of "sailing vessel" does make it clear that it applies only to boats not being propelled by engines.

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Re: Please explain??

I love this vague sniping.

Okay - please inform me - under what circumstances other than that of overtaking when a PDV (as defined by Colregs) meets a sailing vessel (as defined in Colregs, and assuming the boats can see each other) is the PDV not the give way vessel?

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Re: Please explain??

I don't know you so only judging you by your posts but you seem not to have any "sea sense" as all you can do is quote ColRegs and not instances of good seamanship!!

I was going on the Cherbourg/St Vaast cruise later this year, you are giving me second thoughts/forums/images/icons/frown.gif




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Re: Please explain??

How about rule 10(J). rule 19, plus if you read the regs you'll find that there is nothing in the col regs that allow a sailing vessel to deliberately create a situation where a collision will or may occur or force another vessel to take avoiding action possibly putting them in severe danger
Rule 5 states
" Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight as well as by hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision."

Therefore imo any sailing vessel which tacks in front of a mobo or any other power driven vessel creating a collision situation where none existed before is in breach of rule 5, they would also be in breach of rule 2.

You seem to ignore the fact that it stated through out the col regs that utimately it is the responsibility of ALL vessels to avoid a collision.

Right rant over now, I'm away to go and annoy some raggies/forums/images/icons/smile.gif



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Re: Please explain??

having met the gentleman, and cruised within a mile or so all day back from C'Bourg to the Solent, I believe that in an effort to educate re the letter of the Rules he misrepresents his actual approach in practical situations.
I wouldn't hesitate to sail with him.
Overall I think this thread is starting to get a little personal (?) maybe time to call a halt?

<hr width=100% size=1>madesco madidum ..../forums/images/icons/smile.gif
 
Re: Please explain??

That is because this is a discussion about Colregs - not about sea sense. If you want to start a thread about ettiquette and sailing manners please do so and we will discuss such things in that context. I suggest you reread my posts and notice how carefully I qualify a lot of what I have said.

Colregs are not advisory - they are the rules. Knowing the rules is not enough to make one a safe skipper, but I would contend that you cannot be a safe skipper if you don't know the rules. What is really frightening about this thread is the amount of "urban myth" it is throwing up about what Colregs actually says.

A lot of sailing skippers (especially racing skippers) do things of which I do not approve. They may be bad manners, they may even be bad seamanship but that does not necessarily make them wrong.

In almost every case it will take two idiots to make a collision. Usually the idiot in the PDR will be more in the wrong than the idiot in the sailing vessel but at the end of the day they are both wrong, and both idiots.

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Re: Please explain??

A couple of questions and some thoughts....

You didn't give me your thoughts on what I should do when motoring in a congested harbour where to "keep well clear" is impossible due to the number of boats in a relatively narrow channel? Good seamanship would be shown by sail boats using their engine if fitted, but they don't. What do I do?
Thankfully the answer is not important because the fast majority of boaters use Sea sense first ColRegs second in situations where tacking in front of a mobo is concerned.

"That is because this is a discussion about Colregs - not about sea sense"

Does that mean the ColRegs are only any good when apportioning blame after an accident? Seems pretty unfair and waited heavily in favour of sail boats!!

I would suggest the ColRegs are now out of date and require updating as they only seem fairly applicable out at sea.

Didn't mean to sound personal, just frustrated by rules which are biased in the event of an accident. And as I said before had hoped they would be interpreted in conjunction with the circumstances of an accident, not in isolation and to the letter./forums/images/icons/frown.gif


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Re: Please explain??

Rule 19 only applies in restricted visibility - i.e. when the vessels are not in sight of each other.

Rule 10 only says "not to impede". If you read the Colregs you will see that the vessel not to be impeded remains the giveway vessel if so defined elsewhere in the rules.

Rule 5 just covers keeping a lookout. We are talking about situations where the sailing boat has to tack to avoid hitting the putty.

I agree about Rule 2 but it applies equally to both boats and in the absence of other constraining situations a MoBo keeping well clear as required by Rule 18 would not be in such a position that the sailing boat could tack immediately in front of it.

What you have totally failed to address is why, in the absence of other boats and navigational hazards, a MoBo needs to come so close to a sailing boat that the sailing boat tacking would cause him problems.

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Re: Please explain??

"What you have totally failed to address is why, in the absence of other boats and navigational hazards, a MoBo needs to come so close to a sailing boat that the sailing boat tacking would cause him problems. "
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Never said they did and in the absence of any other restrictions I would expect a mobo to keep clear, but keeping clear in the rules is not defined and would be up to the skipper involved to judge that he is keeping clear, but in the above scenario why would the sailing vessel then be entitled to ignore rule 17?

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