colregs again.. tacking in front of a mobo

Re: Talking twaddle

Have to say I too am rather puzzled by Bedouin's viewpoint.

Surely no one has the 'right' to sail at all times when they are clearly going to inconvenience the majority. No matter what the rules say.







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Re: Talking twaddle

I take the view that Rule 2(b) is in someways the most important rule in the book. Without it there it is possible to imagine several ridiculous situations. For example suppose you are being overtaken by another vessel as you approach a hazard or bend in the channel. A strict interpretation of Rule 17 would require you to maintain course and speed and in so doing wreck the boat.

Note that: "On several occasions the courts have ruled that it does not necessarily mean to adhere slavishly to one's original course and speed, regardless of all other circumstances. To paraphrase the court's conclusions: for a vessel to keep her course and speed means that she is to continue to carry out her 'obvious navigational intention'."

Similarly a sailing boat crossing a Motor boat should not expect it to give way if to do so would involve risk of collision with another vessel, or some other such risk.

As to the hypothetical case you mention - yes I think the yacht as the right to tack. The alternative is clearly ludicrous - that the yacht may should be forced to run itself aground. The point is though that you should be keeping well clear in which case the yacht tacking will not cause you to have to take drastic action.



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Re: Talking twaddle

This is a discussion about the rules. Would you like to quote the item in Colregs that contradicts what I am saying.

Good manners and consideration to others are a separate issue - and there are times when these suggest that a sailing boat should use her engine rather than insisting on her right to sail.

None the less should a boat be sailing, either through cussedness or because it has no option, then Colregs is quite clear about the rights.

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Re: Talking twaddle

17 (d) This Rule does not relieve the give-way vessel of her obligation to keep out of the way.

This can only refer to the right of the stand on vessel to "take action to avoid collision by her maneuver alone, as soon as it becomes apparent to her that the vessel required to keep out of the way is not taking appropriate action in accordance with these Rules" and obligation, if she "finds herself so close that collision cannot be avoided by the action of the give-way vessel alone", to "take such action as will best aid to avoid collision". It has no bearing on 17(a)(i). The drafting (or sub-clause numbering) is a bit imprecise but it has to be that way.




<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://aflcharters.co.uk>Dream Dancer</A>
 
Re: Talking twaddle

You quote rule 2(b)
how about rule 2(a) negligence due to poor seamanship?
There's also rules 5, 6, and 7 about responsibility of all vessels.
I think most mobo's realise that a yacht tacking across a channel will at some point change direction and if it's to prevent running aground, some acknologement or indication would normally prevent any problem.
IMO the problem comes when overtaking a yacht which then suddenly tacks across your bows, after maintaining a straight course, especially in a marked narrow channel where you would reasonably expect sufficient depth
The colregs are there to help prevent collisions yet some seem to interprete them as giving them carte blanche to act in any manner they see fit.
The other problem seems to be that some inteprete the colregs as meaning any sailing vessel as opposed to a vessel under sail

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Re: Talking twaddle

Nice to see you have all been busy while I have been sleeping around this side of the world. However, it has not been all rest for me as I have been chatting with my mates at IMO and there is going to be a new addition to the ColRegs which will read along the lines -

It shall be a requirement of this rule that regardless of any other provision within these regulations, that any vessel being skippered by the person known bedouin or any other person who has fallen under his influence shall display at all times a rigid replica of the International Code Flag B over the Code Flag D where they can be best seen.

Such a vessel whilst in any channel shall also display a rigid replica of Code Flag E over Code Flag I.

Some may need their code flag reference to get the gist.

John

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Re: Talking twaddle

Good manners and good humour, as well as an ability to look ahead and foresee problems are a requisite to good boating. Just an IMHO. None of the other problems seem to occur if you have this attitude?

I never see the problems being mentioned.What does that say? I boat in the Solent most of the time.

I'm also the last boat out of whichever river/estuary/berth I'm visiting at the time, when there are a number of us. Slow and steady, no wake. Despite the fact that it takes a while to get back to my berth with no wake. Love rough conditions, and go out in conditions when most are heading home, which could explain why I never see these incidents most complain about, but on the other hand I go out on nice days too? Is this whole thread about attitude?




<hr width=100% size=1>Me transmitte sursum, caledoni
 
Well said Nick, I couldn't agree more.

I'm sorry but anyone who insists on short tacking up a narrow channel when they probably have a perfectly good engine needs putting in the proverbial sailing stocks and pelted with rotten fruit. To me it shows a distinct lack of seamanship and lack of concern for other water users.

In my time I've met both mobo's and raggies that need shooting for everybody's lasting safety. Inconsiderate b****rs from all fields of our sport and I would also include a good number of so-called professional seamen in very large ships.

Many years ago when I was "going" for my professional boatman’s licence one of my teachers was a very experienced boatman at Ramsgate and he offered me some advice which I have remembered to this day and that is "where the ColRegs are concerned remember this"

1) Always keep a good lookout and (try to) understand what you and everyone around you are doing.
2) Even if you’re the stand on boat (note he didn’t say vessel) stand on but if you’re going to hit them for Christ’s sake take avoiding action.
3) Always beware of the skipper that can quote the ColRegs chapter and verse because he’s the skipper that will probably hit you.
4) Finally he said that if I ever hit another boat irrespective of whose fault it was, he had not “learned me right”.

The poor o’ll sod has been dead these last 10 years and whilst he could barely write his name, when he died so much practical experience went with him that I can only aspire to that type of knowledge.

Peter.


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Re: Talking twaddle

A couple of points.

Firstly, it is my view that the majority of incidents are caused by a lack of understanding. If I'm motoring (in a sailing boat) down a narrow channel where other boats are sailing I'm very unlikely to be involved in a close quaters situation with them as I can anticipate pretty acurately their next move as I understand the art of working a boat to weather in a confined space. It is also worth pointing out that tacking a moderate sized boat is not the work of seconds and the preperations (i.e crew moving to jib sheets, helm looking over shoulder etc) are obvious and there for all to see. On the race course this can give vital clues as to the intentions of competitors and in confined waters it is no different. Therefore if a boat under power has to crash stop to avoid a tacking boat I can only assume that the helm is either unaware of the process of tacking or is not paying sufficient attention. Can anyone tell me if an understanding of tacking etc is taught in MOBO courses?
Golden rule. If you're not sure of the intentions of the boat, or if the "fleet" of tacking boats is too thick to safely pass simply stay behind the tacking yacht until you can see a clear way past.


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Re: Talking twaddle

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

I take the view that Rule 2(b) is in someways the most important rule in the book. Without it there it is possible to imagine several ridiculous situations. For example suppose you are being overtaken by another vessel as you approach a hazard or bend in the channel. A strict interpretation of Rule 17 would require you to maintain course and speed and in so doing wreck the boat.

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I disagree. That is exactly the type of situation where 2(b) comes into play. Where a 'give way' vessel has "due regard" for "dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved" then a departure from the specific rules is allowed (required).
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

Note that: "On several occasions the courts have ruled that it does not necessarily mean to adhere slavishly to one's original course and speed, regardless of all other circumstances. To paraphrase the court's conclusions: for a vessel to keep her course and speed means that she is to continue to carry out her 'obvious navigational intention'."

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Seems sensible enough to me. However, an "obvious navigational intention" is a grey area calling for subjective judgement. You can draw a line wherever you choose; I and others may draw it elsewhere.
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

As to the hypothetical case you mention - yes I think the yacht as the right to tack. The alternative is clearly ludicrous - that the yacht may should be forced to run itself aground. The point is though that you should be keeping well clear in which case the yacht tacking will not cause you to have to take drastic action.

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Well I'm not an expert on handling sailing boats but I would have thought that there are several options other than tacking back onto a collision course - heave to if nothing else. If a stand on vessel cannot maintain course and speed because of some navigational hazard, the action it takes should not, imo, be such as to create a risk of collision with another vessel.

Frankly, I think some of your earlier comments are rather revealing:
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

I am not an expert but in most cases I imagine that a MoBo draws less than my 6 feet so a MoBo following Rule 9 (a) (being as far to starboard in the channel as possible - doesn't mention buoys) is not likely to be sharing water with a yacht drawing twice as much.

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You make the assumtion that the power vessel will be a motor boat - it might equally be a much larger sailing vessel (with deeper draft than you) under power.
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

There is nothing necessarily wrong with forcing another boat to take avoiding action - after all that is what colregs is about.

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Hmm.






<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://aflcharters.co.uk>Dream Dancer</A>
 
"I'm sorry but anyone who insists on short tacking up a narrow channel when they probably have a perfectly good engine needs putting in the proverbial sailing stocks and pelted with rotten fruit. To me it shows a distinct lack of seamanship and lack of concern for other water users."

So the only time you should ever tack up a narrow channel is when your engine is no more use than a few hundred kilos of mis-placed ballast? Forgive me, but when my engine fails (as it did at the end of the RTI race) I feel very reassured that I can fall back on my hard won experience of handling a boat in confined waters under sail. If I'd never hoisted my sails until I was well out to sea I would have felt an awful lot more uneasy about manouvering under sail in a gusty wind in an insanely busy Cowes roads! You have to learn skills when you have the engine to fall back on in order that you have the necessary ability to cope when the prop chews a rope or Neptune farts in your face in any one of a hundred other ways.

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so.. to summarise

the majority view is that 'power gives way to sail' is sacred, tacking is not really altering course, we can go where we like and it's up to the mobos to stay away.

nice one chaps. shall i tell them or will you?

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Yes but there's a time and a place to learn, and it ain't the Hamble or Portsmouth entrance on Sunday afternoon, it just a matter of common sense. I've sailed off a pontoon in Yarmouth and short tacked out .. but that was mid week in winter .. suggest if you're in congested waters then its inappropriate to inconvenience everybody for the purposes of self gratification

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Re: so.. to summarise

Sounds about right. But to be fair I also think the summary should mention that this is just what the rules say. Yachting is also about courtesy and respect and I think a majority of sailing people will consider it quite rude to tack just in front of a motorboat that happens to be too close - even when they are allowed to do so.

It is important to note that this thread was/is about what the rules say and not about what constitutes fair and decent behaviour. It IS in the spirit of sailing to keep a strategic overview and not be an obstacle to others enjoying the sea which, in a way, belongs to us all.

If this is really a problem in the UK, I suggest you do like the nice gentleman I meet last week of the RAF Yacht Club who kept his HR in Sweden and sailed in our largely uncongested archipelagos for a few months in the summer.

I must be in a good mood today...



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Re: so.. to summarise

I think you forgot the [irony] [/irony] markup tags for the benefit of our Swedish friend.

Actually, I don't think the majority view is as you state. My reading of the thread (and my summary of what I think colregs require in spirit and in strict interpretation) is that most agree with you that a stand on vessel should not perform a manoeuvre which forces a give way vessel to take additional evasive action which it would not have had to take if the manoeuvre was not performed.

The important point about this, imo, is that it is not just applicable to'sail vs power' but all encounters between a stand on and a give way vessel.



<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://aflcharters.co.uk>Dream Dancer</A>
 
Re: so.. to summarise

Since your conclusion is that the majority view is "power gives way to sail",
does that mean if a sailing vessel is overtaking a powerdriven vessel, then powerdriven vessel must giveway?????/forums/images/icons/wink.gif

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Re: so.. to summarise

I think that the major problem in this thread that a number of people came to see it as some sort of vote. The colregs exist as they are and we are not in a position to rewrite them or reinterpret them.

Sorry lads - if that's what they say, that's the way it is - whether you agree or disagree isn't relevant.

In practical terms they are of no great consequence to the average leisure boater except in the event of a collision. Then they are what the insurance companies will use to aportion blame.



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Re: so.. to summarise

What!!!

"In practical terms they are of no great consequence to the average leisure boater except in the event of a collision"


[rant on]

But that's what they are there for...to avoid collisions. If the circumstances surrounding the collision are interpreted using the ColRegs and the Mobo is at fault because some saily person did something stupid in a crowded harbour surely that can't be right?

We are not talking about the high seas here, not even the Solent, but congested harbours such as Chichester where if I had to keep clear by your standards I'd have to stay in the marina.
Very often one has to rely on the good seamanship of others in these places.
Yes we do keep a look out and try to anticipate what's going to happen and where POSSIBLE leave enough room for any eventuality, and I don't even mind having to do a crash stop if the boat in front has to manoeuvre unexpectedly. But what I do mind is the attitude of "the rules say I can do it so I will, regardless of the situation my actions put you in".

It's generally a non starter due to the above very very rarely happening, but if it does and it causes an accident I'd like to think the interpretation of the ColRegs would be in conjunction with the circumstances and not Mobo and sail have accident = mobo's fault.

[rant off]
 
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