colregs again.. tacking in front of a mobo

[Scaramoosh]

Re: so.. to summarise

Actually I think that this is more important than a vote method, its about how all of us who use boats of which ever variety treat each other on the water. There have been a number of posts about hypothetical situations. This one is real, I know who it was (I wrote down his sail number) tell me who was in the right?

Situation Heading down Itchenor Reach on a Summer Sunday Evening with the potential that the lock would cease to operate at Chi Marina due to lack of water soon.

36ft Yacht in front of me on a reach which when he got to the botom of this streach of the channel he would need to harden up onto a fetch but wouldn't need to tack.

Wind is dying away and he is making less than 3 Knots in a 6 knot speed limit and he has just been overtaken by 2 or 3 Mobos without any problem. He is traveling down his side of the channel.

I move into the centre of the channel to pass but he moves across to the centre in front of me.

OK I think - he will need to harden up so he wants me to pass down his Starboard side so I move across and low and behold he closes the door again. Move into the centre and get to the position where when I started Yacht Racing I would have called "mast abeam" and what does he do -

He Luffs up through almost 60 degrees so I have to Crash stop not to run him down, 2 x 365HP at 6 knots gives good brakes thankfully. I and my Parents in Law are then subjected to a tirade of abuse about Motor gives way to Sail and he isn't going to loose his f***ing place in the lock queue.

What did I do wrong?

Rule that apply are Give way, over taking, stand on etc but if Sailors of either Motor or Rag variety are stupid or bad mannered accidents will happen. We ended up maybe 3 inches apart we me stopped and his quarter sailing by. It sems that according to some posters in this thread he was within his rights - I don't think so

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[MainlySteam]

Re: so.. to summarise

If it happened as you describe it then the sailboat was in the wrong. As the stand on vessel he has to maintain his course. He is also required to maintain his speed but his inability to do that was outside his control. But by slowing down and not motoring to maintain it, he, in my own opinion, probably lost any "queue" rights he felt that he may have had (like in the race to the fuel dock or last mooring type situation).

Recent case resulting in an maritime accident investigation, MoBo was overtaking a yacht, so yacht was stand on on account of being over taken and on account of sail. The yacht rounded up onto MoBo because of confused sea from big fleet of boats (spectator fleet for an international event), they collided and a passenger on MoBo (commercial vessel) slightly injured and damage to boats - yacht was found at fault and penalty applied.

Seems from this thread, some would think the opposite.

John

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[bedouin]

Re: so.. to summarise

Can you give more details of the case to which you are referring? I'd be very interested to read why they did not censure the MoBo for not keeping well clear - you have to imagine that there were other circumstances such as the proximity of other craft that limited the MoBos ability to keep clear.

I've been searching the internet for it and all I can find is a case where a MoBo broached into a sailing vessel while the MoBo was overtaking and the MoBo was found to be at fault. (That is Barossa, Triptych)

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[snowleopard]

ok, let\'s do this the hard way...

since a bit of gentle irony goes straight over the heads of so many, let's spell it out.

a large proportion of contributors seem to think that the only rule that counts is 'power gives way to sail'.

That does not make it correct! any more than the common belief among drivers of small motor boats that we drive on the left makes that the rule.

what it means is that there are plenty of people out there who will carve you up in the unshakeable belief that they are in the right. perhaps some defensive sailing courses would be a good idea.

i recall from a few years back the case of a small fishing boat, at anchor and showing an anchor ball, who was carved up by a raggie who came so close he severed the anchor cable and yelled as he passed - you've guessed it - 'power gives way to sail'. the problem is nothing new.







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[MainlySteam]

Re: so.. to summarise

I am familiar with the report you mention as that accident report came to me when it was produced for my own work reasons (I do not recall, but the draft may also have come to me for comment at the time as when it happened I managed a company which was responsible for providing safety management services (surveys and operational) to approximately 60% of NZ's commercial fleet). But it is not the one.

It is not up to me to and I am not able to publicise the specific details of the accident. I currently work in marine litigations involving small commercial vessels.

John

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[MainlySteam]

Re: so.. to summarise

But it does come to mind that I can recount a situation involving myself with an outcome entirely different to what I interpret some are saying in this thread.

This happened off Cape Jackson, Cook Strait (where the cruise ship Michel Lermotov -however it is spelt) went down and in the same gap in the reef where she struck. An area well known to us so any problems should not have been a suprise to us.

Wife and I were heading South to enter the gap in the middle of which was a fishing boat about the same size as us coming the other way. We were on a broad reach in about 20 knots, gusting a bit higher so all sail up. As we approached into the gap, with no signs on the water because of the tidal turbulence in there, the wind rose to 40+ knots in about that many seconds and changed direction as it was deflected off the Cape. We were heavily over pressed and had two options - luff up into the path of the fishing boat causing it to take evasive action and possibly put it at risk through collision with us or other event, or for us to crash gybe away and keep our misfortune to ourselves. And that is what we did, the gybe demolished our mainsheet car and took the end stop clean off the traveller but we managed to bring the boat up far enough and quickly enough into the wind and over on its ear on the other gybe without damaging the standing rigging (mainly because we could use the steep following sea to broach us around once the boom started swinging.

What would you have done?

John

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[bedouin]

Re: so.. to summarise

Surely the ruling of the courts are in the Public Domain? I'm sure that would be the case in the UK in a similar case

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[bedouin]

Re: so.. to summarise

That sort of situation is why I think "keep well clear" should allow enough sea room for a yacht that a broach won't risk immediate collision.

In the situation you describe were you stand on or give way (i.e. was the fishing boat engaged in fishing)?

I'm not sure what I would have done in your situation - can't really tell without being there - but I don't think I would have crash-gybed with the main out. On Bedouin just letting fly the sheets and kicker would probably bring her under control.

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[Mike21]

Re: ok, let\'s do this the hard way...

Sorry , realised that and the conclusion wasn't your point of view/forums/images/icons/blush.gif,
it was meant as a slightly sarcastic dig at those who seem to believe that power gives way to sail, regardless of any other provisions in the col regs, byelaws etc and seem to lack what I would term essential safety item for all leisure boaters ie "common sense"/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif

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[KevB]

Please explain??

You like the phrase "keep well clear" please explain how clear is well clear? 5mtrs?, 10mtrs?, 20mtrs?, 50mtrs. Also put it in the context of sailing in a congested harbour.

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[bedouin]

Re: so.. to summarise

That sort of situation is why I think "keep well clear" should allow enough sea room for a yacht that a broach won't risk immediate collision.

In the situation you describe were you stand on or give way (i.e. was the fishing boat engaged in fishing)?

I'm not sure what I would have done in your situation - can't really tell without being there - but I don't think I would have crash-gybed with the main out (too much risk of serious damage that could quickly turn into a Mayday). On Bedouin just letting fly the sheets and kicker would probably bring her under control.

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[bedouin]

Re: Please explain??

That's why I am so interested in the legal interpretation of the phrase.

Without any external constraints I would say that "keep well clear" is at least far enough away so that you could comfortably take avoiding action whatever the other vessel did (irrespective of Colregs).

It is a fact that sailing boats broach from time to time, often through no fault of the skipper (see another thread about a collision between two sailing boats). If you are so close to the sailing boat that a broach would cause a collision then I would say that was not "keeping well clear".

In open water with no other vessels around there is really no need to get closer than 50 metres - and even that might be a bit too close

External factors, such as being in a crowded harbour, affect that and under those conditions it is the responsiblity of the stand on vessel to give due consideration to the limitations on the action of the give way vessel.

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[Mike21]

Re: Please explain??

Can you please explain as both vessels were heading towards each other thru a narrow channel but were not on a collision course how that made the fishing vessel the giveway vessel and should have kept clear?



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[KevB]

Re: Please explain??

I agree that in open water 50mtrs is probably a polite minimum, but in a congested harbour I would be lucky if I could manage to keep more than one to two boat lengths away from any sailing boats. What do I do then?/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif
I have never had a problem with "proper" sailing boats as generally we are all in the same "boat" so to speak, of being in limited free water. It's the dinghy's which regularly hog the fairways.
It does worry me though that I could be held resposible for someone elses ignorant actions.

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[bedouin]

Re: Please explain??

I didn't say it was.

This is a basic application of Rule 18

If the Fishing vessel was engaged in fishing then the Sailing Vessel should keep clear. If the Fishing vessel is not actively engaged in fishing then it is treated as a power driven vessel and should keep clear of the Sailing Vessel.

If it is a narrow channel then even if it is fishing it is required not to impede the sailing vessel.

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[Mike21]

Re: Please explain??

Actually, going by rule 18(b) iii, if other vessel was fishing it is up to the yacht to keep clear. If not then if neither vessel was on a collision course, then obviously the power vessel was keeping clear if he was on correct side of channel according to rule 9 for narrow channels.
also rule 2
"
Responsibility

(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master, or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case.

(b) In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.

As it says ALL vessels, this would suggest that a yacht that tacked or broached in front of another vessel had not taken the neccesary precautions as described above.
All the rules are there to AVOID danger !!!!

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[duncan]

Re: so.. to summarise

have to agree with bedoin - the circumstances arn't clear enough to really understand ie -
how wide and long a gap; why couldn't you see the fishing boat earlier?; was it in the gap already but you had already committed (pehaps unwisely?) and were caught out by the conditions?
I think at times it helps to consider the 'motoboat' as an imovable obstruction - oh dear there is a new lighthouse/pier/rock in the way now what??????? is, I think, exactly what bedoin has been trying to put over as a sitution neither party should get into.
I know car/road analogies are poor but I live in an area with lots of narrow lanes and I have always been taught that I should be able to stop, in control, within the distance I can actually see ie. whats round the corner is my problem and I shouldn't become the problem of someone in the road around it.

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[peterb]

Re: Please explain??

"Actually, going by rule 18(b) iii, if other vessel was fishing it is up to the yacht to keep clear."

Not if they are in a narrow channel. If they are, then Rule 9(c) holds: "A vessel engaged in fishing shall not impede the passage of any other vessel navigating within a narrow channel or fairway."

I think that this highlights one of the problems with Colregs; there is no definition of "narrow channel". It seems to depend on what the courts say after an incident has happened. I'd like to see a definition along the lines of "whenever one or other of the vessels involved may be restricted in its ability to manoeuvre as required by these regulations because of the proximity of water shallow in relation to the vessel's draught." That would then cover the case where a boat is restricted by shallows on one side, even though the other side may be the Atlantic Ocean.

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[duncan]

Re: narrow channel definition

exactly...............

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[Mike21]

Re: Please explain??

Bedoin, quoted rule 18 power vessel should keep clear of sailing vessel, just pointed out that if vessel was fishing responsibility is with sailing vessel to keep clear. wasn't judging otherwise as I have insufficient information on what happened and I wasn't there.
As the vessel even if he had been fishing was not impeding the yacht unless the yacht had changed course, then surely the fishing boat was complying with rule 9

Also pointed out it is the respomsibility off all vessel to proceed at safe speed and take account of conditions, navigation hazards etc, not sole responsibility of power vessels

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